Internal Auditor Qualification for ISO 9001:2008

[KCIPOH]

Hello Cove members,

We have recently been re-certified for ISO9001:2008 and during the re-certification audit, there was an Opportunity For Improvement (OFI) from the certification body auditor for Clause 6.2.2 on Competence, Training and Awareness whereby we are suggested to include the internal auditors competency in term of appropriate education, training and experience that could be properly identified.

The auditor have proposed to create a job description for the suggested item above but what i have in mind is that :
1. Do the ISO9001:2008 internal auditor need to be qualified? As i'm just
joined the company recently, i'm not sure whether the selected internal
auditor are qualified.
2. What is the criteria for an employee to be a qualified internal auditor?
3. If they are not qualified, then should i propose to management to get in
a training body to get them qualified accordingly or is there any other
way to qualified them instead of get them attend the training?

This company has been certified for the part 14 years and i'm asking above question is because our selected internal auditors are from sales, DCC and store and since we have been suggested by our certification body auditor to establish a job description for the internal auditor, what i write must tally with our selected internal auditor qualification, otherwise it will not comply with the ISO9001 concept (what you say is what you do) and i might be question during our next surveillance audit.

Please provide me with a job description for an internal auditor for ISO9001:2008 for my reference, Thanks for everyone's help.

 

[rob73]

Re: Internal Auditor Qualification for ISO9001:2008

Kcipoh
Take a look at ISO 19011, there is a section on competence and evaluation of auditors including levels of education, personal attributes etc.
http://www.iso.org/iso/catalogue_detail?csnumber=50675
Rob

 

[qusys]

Re: Internal Auditor Qualification for ISO9001:2008

Hello Cove members,

We have recently been re-certified for ISO9001:2008 and during the re-certification audit, there was an Opportunity For Improvement (OFI) from the certification body auditor for Clause 6.2.2 on Competence, Training and Awareness whereby we are suggested to include the internal auditors competency in term of appropriate education, training and experience that could be properly identified.

The auditor have proposed to create a job description for the suggested item above but what i have in mind is that :
1. Do the ISO9001:2008 internal auditor need to be qualified? As i'm just
joined the company recently, i'm not sure whether the selected internal
auditor are qualified.
2. What is the criteria for an employee to be a qualified internal auditor?
3. If they are not qualified, then should i propose to management to get in
a training body to get them qualified accordingly or is there any other
way to qualified them instead of get them attend the training?

This company has been certified for the part 14 years and i'm asking above question is because our selected internal auditors are from sales, DCC and store and since we have been suggested by our certification body auditor to establish a job description for the internal auditor, what i write must tally with our selected internal auditor qualification, otherwise it will not comply with the ISO9001 concept (what you say is what you do) and i might be question during our next surveillance audit.

Please provide me with a job description for an internal auditor for ISO9001:2008 for my reference, Thanks for everyone's help.

The questions that you have raised should be addressed in your documented internal audit procedure. Job description is not mandatory, but the organization shall set authority and responsibility for each organization's role.
The establishment of the criteria for selecting internal auditors as well as their competence , education and training stays on the organization.
If you did not do it, the auditor would have written a non conformity, not an opportunity for improvement, according to my opinion.

 

[KCIPOH]

Re: Internal Auditor Qualification for ISO9001:2008

The questions that you have raised should be addressed in your documented internal audit procedure. Job description is not mandatory, but the organization shall set authority and responsibility for each organization's role.
The establishment of the criteria for selecting internal auditors as well as their competence , education and training stays on the organization.
If you did not do it, the auditor would have written a non conformity, not an opportunity for improvement, according to my opinion.

Thank you but can you still provide me a job description for an internal auditor in general? Thanks

 

[qusys]

Re: Internal Auditor Qualification for ISO9001:2008

Thank you but can you still provide me a job description for an internal auditor in general? Thanks

You can check on internet navigator with " job description quality auditor" or in this forum woth key word " job description" in the bar " post attachments"
The documents can give you an idea but the advice is to fit the job description according to the needs and the objectives of your organization, because each organization has its own characteristics.
In some organization the job of quality auditor is more related to quality system , being the role has involved as support in the organization for quality tools with addition to internal audit, in others it is an additional responsibility.
I have also seen that some quality auditor, or better QMS auditor, are also involved in supplier audit. I do not if this is also your case.

 

[AndyN]

Re: Internal Auditor Qualification for ISO9001:2008

Hello Cove members,

We have recently been re-certified for ISO9001:2008 and during the re-certification audit, there was an Opportunity For Improvement (OFI) from the certification body auditor for Clause 6.2.2 on Competence, Training and Awareness whereby we are suggested to include the internal auditors competency in term of appropriate education, training and experience that could be properly identified.

The auditor have proposed to create a job description for the suggested item above but what i have in mind is that :
1. Do the ISO9001:2008 internal auditor need to be qualified? As i'm just
joined the company recently, i'm not sure whether the selected internal
auditor are qualified.
2. What is the criteria for an employee to be a qualified internal auditor?
3. If they are not qualified, then should i propose to management to get in
a training body to get them qualified accordingly or is there any other
way to qualified them instead of get them attend the training?

This company has been certified for the part 14 years and i'm asking above question is because our selected internal auditors are from sales, DCC and store and since we have been suggested by our certification body auditor to establish a job description for the internal auditor, what i write must tally with our selected internal auditor qualification, otherwise it will not comply with the ISO9001 concept (what you say is what you do) and i might be question during our next surveillance audit.

Please provide me with a job description for an internal auditor for ISO9001:2008 for my reference, Thanks for everyone's help.

Where is there a problem here that a job description will fix? I read about an apparently biased auditor but see no reason for an OFI. Your auditor is wrong to suggest such a thing. You are in danger of having to please an auditor. Is he suggesting that without job descriptions you will get a NC at your next surveillance? Sounds like a threat to me!

Please stop and reconsider what you are doing. Job descriptions are not required or even necessary. A procedure plus training etc should be ample to define the audit process.

 

[KCIPOH]

Re: Internal Auditor Qualification for ISO9001:2008

Where is there a problem here that a job description will fix? I read about an apparently biased auditor but see no reason for an OFI. Your auditor is wrong to suggest such a thing. You are in danger of having to please an auditor. Is he suggesting that without job descriptions you will get a NC at your next surveillance? Sounds like a threat to me!

Please stop and reconsider what you are doing. Job descriptions are not required or even necessary. A procedure plus training etc should be ample to define the audit process.

Hello Andy,

The auditor didn't say without a job description, they will issue a NCR at next surveillance audit but since this item has been put into OFI and if we dont carry out the OFI, it will be a NCR, am i right? i'm also not sure about this, please explain

 

[AndyN]

Re: Internal Auditor Qualification for ISO9001:2008

Hello Andy,

The auditor didn't say without a job description, they will issue a NCR at next surveillance audit but since this item has been put into OFI and if we dont carry out the OFI, it will be a NCR, am i right? i'm also not sure about this, please explain

That may be the case - however, since the auditor is expressing their OPINION and not a requirement of ISO 9001, they will have a problem reporting a non-conformity! I'm assuming that you don't have any document in your QMS which says you will create a documented job description for such positions. If you do, then the auditor would have been able to reference that, and not used opinion.

Unless there is evidence that your auditors need a job description to help them do their auditor work, you should not worry over this! Be sure of the requirements and how well your auditors do their tasks and DO NOT accept anything from your CB auditor which is based on their OPINION!

 

[KCIPOH]

Re: Internal Auditor Qualification for ISO9001:2008

That may be the case - however, since the auditor is expressing their OPINION and not a requirement of ISO 9001, they will have a problem reporting a non-conformity! I'm assuming that you don't have any document in your QMS which says you will create a documented job description for such positions. If you do, then the auditor would have been able to reference that, and not used opinion.

Unless there is evidence that your auditors need a job description to help them do their auditor work, you should not worry over this! Be sure of the requirements and how well your auditors do their tasks and DO NOT accept anything from your CB auditor which is based on their OPINION!

Yes, we don't have any document in our QMS specify that we will create a job description for such positions. Glad to have your opinion.

Thank you

 

[Gnasher]

Re: Internal Auditor Qualification for ISO9001:2008

A little late in the thread, but...OFI's don't automatically become NC's.
There is no requirement in ISO 9001:2008 for formal internal auditor training. It is upto the company to decide the skills, training and competences their auditors need to ensure that they identify areas of the QMS that require improvement. You may just want to create a simple flowchart for the process to help your organisation.
Just remember that you can't audit your own areas or work.