Acronym COPQ - TS 16949 Clause 5.6.1.1 - My definition - What do you think?

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darkafar

TS clause 5.6.1.1 states, “Part of the management review shall be ……the regular reporting and evaluation of the cost of poor quality”

I’m a fan of Activity-based costing, so I don’t want to divide costs into difference categories, such as conformity or nonconformity etc. I only want to use one word –cost, the cost of activity, the cost of warehouse space, the cost of material, the cost of man hour, the cost of machine hour, the cost of delivery, the cost of yield etc.

I want to ignore RD activity cost, and focus my attention on the value-adding activities and necessary non-value-adding activities. I plan to assign a cost value to each activity, or material used.

For example, the sales department forecast we would sell product A some quantity a month.

To make this quantity of product A, we need warehouse space m square meter for raw material x, n square meter for raw material y, and machine hour, operator hour, delivery cost etc. I assign a cost value to them. (All control plan step costs, such as pressing, coating, inspection, sorting are included, but QFD, APQP, FMEA, training, auditing, management review cost are not included)

I also consider assigning a cost value to each yield value, and delivery punctuality, so that improving yield or delivery punctuality is also reducing process cost, and I don’t have to worry about returning goods, complaints, external failure etc.

I add up the above mentioned cost, and then divide it by product quantity. This would be the cost each individual product actually costs us, provided the manufacturing process has already been designed.

I prefer this way of computing cost because I think it can be used for the process designer to compare individual product cost to the customer-demanded cost. And it is also easier to understand for the Kaizen team.

But is it cost of poor quality? I could explain to the auditor that ISO doesn’t define what is COPQ, and I think that the process have improvement room is evidence that the process is poor, so the cost of the poorly designed process is COPQ.

Do you think the auditor will buy this? How do you think of my cost accounting?
 

Stijloor

Leader
Super Moderator
Re: My definition of COPQ - how do you think?

TS clause 5.6.1.1 states, “Part of the management review shall be ……the regular reporting and evaluation of the cost of poor quality”

I’m a fan of Activity-based costing, so I don’t want to divide costs into difference categories, such as conformity or nonconformity etc. I only want to use one word –cost, the cost of activity, the cost of warehouse space, the cost of material, the cost of man hour, the cost of machine hour, the cost of delivery, the cost of yield etc.

I want to ignore RD activity cost, and focus my attention on the value-adding activities and necessary non-value-adding activities. I plan to assign a cost value to each activity, or material used.

For example, the sales department forecast we would sell product A some quantity a month.

To make this quantity of product A, we need warehouse space m square meter for raw material x, n square meter for raw material y, and machine hour, operator hour, delivery cost etc. I assign a cost value to them. (All control plan step costs, such as pressing, coating, inspection, sorting are included, but QFD, APQP, FMEA, training, auditing, management review cost are not included)

I also consider assigning a cost value to each yield value, and delivery punctuality, so that improving yield or delivery punctuality is also reducing process cost, and I don’t have to worry about returning goods, complaints, external failure etc.

I add up the above mentioned cost, and then divide it by product quantity. This would be the cost each individual product actually costs us, provided the manufacturing process has already been designed.

I prefer this way of computing cost because I think it can be used for the process designer to compare individual product cost to the customer-demanded cost. And it is also easier to understand for the Kaizen team.

But is it cost of poor quality? I could explain to the auditor that ISO doesn’t define what is COPQ, and I think that the process have improvement room is evidence that the process is poor, so the cost of the poorly designed process is COPQ.

Do you think the auditor will buy this? How do you think of my cost accounting?

Hello darkafar,

The cost of poor quality is the price you pay for not doing things right. Scrap, rework, fixing, repairing, sorting, etc. Philip Crosby called it "PONC", the Price of Nonconformance. If you calculate just "cost", that does not give you a clear picture where money is wasted. Keep in mind who "wrote the book!" (ISO/TS 16949:2002). Your automotive customers are very concerned where the money is going in your organization. They obviously are interested in the best product at the lowest possible price and do not want "waste" calculated into your selling price. So, it is not about what your CB auditor will "buy", it is about what makes sense to you and your customer and to identify waste ($$$) factors, prioritize, and eliminate them.

Stijloor.
 

AndyN

Moved On
Re: COPQ - TS 19949 Clause 5.6.1.1 - My definition - What do you think?

Darkafar:

It's a simple concept really - cost of poor quality. It's the cost associated with getting it 'wrong' - e.g non-conforming product (in what ever way it's dispositioned, scrap, reworked etc.), the cost of processing customer complaints, 8D's, warranty/returns, breakdowns on the line, supplier reject processing and so on.

You don't have to make a big deal of tracking down every last penny/cent etc. Just capture the major costs which should be apparent. BTW - your accounting people should be able to help out, but in many cases I've seen, there isn't a financial process in place to capture some COPQ figures!
 
S

Sean Kelley

Re: COPQ - TS 19949 Clause 5.6.1.1 - My definition - What do you think?

Stiljoor is correct the COPQ is the cost of not doing things correctly the first time. I did this and managed to save our company over $1M in less than 3 years. Previously it was not traceked within my company and they had over $1.5M in COPQ. You are correct that they do not tell you how to define it but most people would expect returns, premium freight costs, manufacturing rejects, etc. These do not have to be exact but should be fixed to compare month to month and year to year. This should then be reviewed in Management review and if there are problems focus on the problem areas and make decisions that will improve them.

Example: if we made bad iron powder that was nonconforming then I would calculate a fixed cost of $150/ton. If we had 10 tons then 10x$150= $1500. Then returns would have cost associated with them. Obviously premium freight was a set cost each month. This was if we needed to ship in a faster than standard manner or if we shipped something incorrectly and needed to pay extra to have the delivery corrected. Lastly we charged ourselves $1000 for every customer complaint. This was considered administative costs and other fees for a complaint.

Then I focused on problem areas such as high nonconforming production to see what we could do. Then we would form teams to tackle issues such as why are we suddenly seing inclusions in our powder and rejecting or downgrading lots. This can seriuosly increase COPQ and was typically the highest portion but sometimes high complaints and large returns were major costs as well. Occasionally premium freight was a problem when we would have to air freight material overseas due to powder problems.

Hopefully these ideas help and the key is to use it as a tool that will be effective and not just a pony show. Otherwise it QA activities lose their value and are looked down upon as just costs to do business.
 

Ajit Basrur

Leader
Admin
COPQ consists of those costs which are generated as a result of producing defective material.

This cost includes the cost involved in fulfilling the gap between the desired and actual product/service quality. It also includes the cost of lost opportunity due to the loss of resources used in rectifying the defect. This cost includes all the labor cost, rework cost, disposition costs, and material costs that have been added to the unit up to the point of rejection. COPQ does not include detection and prevention cost.

BROKEN isixsigma.com LINK REMOVED.

Also refer to How to Calculate the Cost of Poor Quality (COPQ) for valuable info
 
Last edited by a moderator:
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darkafar

I see. COPQ has to be an unexpected outcome, like defective products, scraps, reworks and their associated works, premium freight. They can't be planned. They are calculated after the event.

So what I posted is just cost, not cost of poor quality.

Am I right?
 

Stijloor

Leader
Super Moderator
I see. COPQ has to be an unexpected outcome, like defective products, scraps, reworks and their associated works, premium freight. They can't be planned. They are calculated after the event.

So what I posted is just cost, not cost of poor quality.

Am I right?


Yes, you're right.
 

Ajit Basrur

Leader
Admin
I see. COPQ has to be an unexpected outcome, like defective products, scraps, reworks and their associated works, premium freight. They can't be planned. They are calculated after the event.

So what I posted is just cost, not cost of poor quality.

Am I right?

Yes, it is
 
R

RickT

Re: My definition of COPQ - how do you think?

Hello darkafar,

The cost of poor quality is the price you pay for not doing things right. Scrap, rework, fixing, repairing, sorting, etc. Philip Crosby called it "PONC", the Price of Nonconformance. If you calculate just "cost", that does not give you a clear picture where money is wasted. Keep in mind who "wrote the book!" (ISO/TS 16949:2002). Your automotive customers are very concerned where the money is going in your organization. They obviously are interested in the best product at the lowest possible price and do not want "waste" calculated into your selling price. So, it is not about what your CB auditor will "buy", it is about what makes sense to you and your customer and to identify waste ($$$) factors, prioritize, and eliminate them.

Stijloor.

Well said !!!!!
It most assuredly is not up to the auditor to provide the definition. It is all about what the organization does with the information gathered and how they use it for both their own benefit and that of their customer.
This approach deals directly with the goal of TS 16949 stated in Section 0.5 of the TS - "the development of a QMS that provides for continual improvement, defect prevention and the reduction of variation and waste ..."
Surely that is a reasonable goal for any QMS - automotive or otherwise.
RickT
 
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Snowman1

Also consider specific operations/processes such as internal CS-1 as well as any hourly AND/OR salaried personnel dedicated to COPQ activity. Often times facilities will have specified staff dealing with activities directly associated with COPQ (ie. 8D Coordinator, temporary inspectors, sorters, etc.):bonk:
 
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