Ask if SAP implementations in Trading Company does comply with ISO 9001

[Fadhilah Cholish Azhari]

As a background, my company has accomplished certified IATF 16949 and we conducting ISO 9001 based audit to our suppliers.

But, our trading suppliers (mostly raw materials) do not have certified ISO 9001 yet, and most of them do not have a documented procedure/rule of their operational process. Instead, they are using SAP as their operational basis.

My question is does SAP could be considered as a documented information (same as like a procedure) or it should be treated differently?

 

[qusys]

As a background, my company has accomplished certified IATF 16949 and we conducting ISO 9001 based audit to our suppliers.

But, our trading suppliers (mostly raw materials) do not have certified ISO 9001 yet, and most of them do not have a documented procedure/rule of their operational process. Instead, they are using SAP as their operational basis.

My question is does SAP could be considered as a documented information (same as like a procedure) or it should be treated differently?

SAP is a system not a process, it contains documented information ( records) about their processes . It depends how it is used and with which features and sections are used by them. Coming back to your supplier audit, it depends on what are your criteria to audit your suppliers and customer requirements. The response could be positive if you can find all evidence that you search during audit. Consider that you should develop them towards ISO 9001 certification , unless differently specified. First step for them is to be conform to ISO 9001 with second part audits.

 

[malasuerte]

As a background, my company has accomplished certified IATF 16949 and we conducting ISO 9001 based audit to our suppliers.

But, our trading suppliers (mostly raw materials) do not have certified ISO 9001 yet, and most of them do not have a documented procedure/rule of their operational process. Instead, they are using SAP as their operational basis.

My question is does SAP could be considered as a documented information (same as like a procedure) or it should be treated differently?

In short - NO, SAP is not the same as documented information. As qusys says, SAP is simply a tool/system which holds 'things'.

 

[Big Jim]

In short - NO, SAP is not the same as documented information. As qusys says, SAP is simply a tool/system which holds 'things'.

Would not the "things" (or at least most of them) that SAP holds be documents and records? Keep in mind that documented information is defined in ISO 9001:2015 as "retained documented information" are records and "maintained documented information" are documents.

 

[qusys]

Would not the "things" (or at least most of them) that SAP holds be documents and records? Keep in mind that documented information is defined in ISO 9001:2015 as "retained documented information" are records and "maintained documented information" are documents.

Yes, Big Jim. In the original post I think that the colleague talked about as a "box", where records (retained documented information) and procedures ( maintained document information) are stored by the supplier. Being they not ISO 9001 certified yet, the customer should audit them with second part audit to check them if they comply to ISO 9001 standard, unless differently specified.
Clearly in SAP there are not all the evidences to show during an audit, there are additional requirement that shall be pursue and evidences can be stored in another way in the company system.

 

[UncleFester]

Are you aiming to determine if your suppliers are compliant to ISO9001 through your own audits? Do you have your customer's agreement for this?

Be careful with the requirements in IATF16949, clause 8.4.2.3 and the impact of sanctioned interpretation 8. As an IATF organisation, you should have a minimum acceptable level of QMS development and a target level for each supplier. Unless you have a customer's authorisation to use a supplier without ISO9001 certification, then this must be the level of development. It may be an idea to document this, based on risk to your organisation.

You are at risk of a nonconformance by your certification body if your suppliers "mostly raw materials" are not certified to ISO9001 and there is no development plan.

 

[malasuerte]

Would not the "things" (or at least most of them) that SAP holds be documents and records? Keep in mind that documented information is defined in ISO 9001:2015 as "retained documented information" are records and "maintained documented information" are documents.

Records and DI, yes; The OP stated SAP was doubling as the procedure because work was being done directly in the tool.

Now - I can only speculate based on what is stated and not seeing in reality; but what I read is: Because I use SAP to place an order every day, I don't need an ordering procedure. That's like saying, I am going to do this brain surgery because all the tools are right here in front of me; I don't need a procedure.

If that is not the ask - then it needs to be clarified.

Plus - the requirement of standards state: "shall have a documented ..."; entering information into a tool is not a "documented procedure".

again - disclaimer: only going off words.

 

[Big Jim]

Records and DI, yes; The OP stated SAP was doubling as the procedure because work was being done directly in the tool.

Now - I can only speculate based on what is stated and not seeing in reality; but what I read is: Because I use SAP to place an order every day, I don't need an ordering procedure. That's like saying, I am going to do this brain surgery because all the tools are right here in front of me; I don't need a procedure.

If that is not the ask - then it needs to be clarified.

Plus - the requirement of standards state: "shall have a documented ..."; entering information into a tool is not a "documented procedure".

again - disclaimer: only going off words.

Have you forgotten that the current version ISO 9001 has no requirements for procedures? The word procedure is gone.

 

[Paul Simpson]

Have you forgotten that the current version ISO 9001 has no requirements for procedures? The word procedure is gone.

Just because the word 'procedure' is not used in ISO 9001 does not mean it cannot be used.

In ISO 9000 'procedure' is mentioned in several areas, including for documented information.

As a background, my company has accomplished certified IATF 16949 and we conducting ISO 9001 based audit to our suppliers.

But, our trading suppliers (mostly raw materials) do not have certified ISO 9001 yet, and most of them do not have a documented procedure/rule of their operational process. Instead, they are using SAP as their operational basis.

My question is does SAP could be considered as a documented information (same as like a procedure) or it should be treated differently?

It depends totally on your configuration of SAP. Generally, the SAP system controls the process for producing the product (or delivering a service). You can have controls and documentation built into the SAP system as process controls. There is a useful page on this here.

 

[Big Jim]

Just because the word 'procedure' is not used in ISO 9001 does not mean it cannot be used.

In ISO 9000 'procedure' is mentioned in several areas, including for documented information.

It would seem to me that there is a difference between cannot be used and shall be used. Is that not true? If so, can an organization be compelled to do so? I think not.