Customer Specific Requirements and PPAP submissions

antoine.dias

Quite Involved in Discussions
#1
Compliance to Customer Specific Requirements

The PPAP manual requires records of compliance with CSR. ( Item 19 in the " retention / submission table )

Depending on the level the customer gave you, you will have to retain or sent the records.

Best regards,

Antoine
 
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Andrews

#2
antoine.dias said:
The PPAP manual requires records of compliance with CSR. ( Item 19 in the " retention / submission table )

Depending on the level the customer gave you, you will have to retain or sent the records.

Best regards,

Antoine
Does it not mean CSR's related to PPAP?

Thanks
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#3
Andrews said:
Does it not mean CSR's related to PPAP?

Thanks
The requirement is imprecise. It is not clear whether they mean to limit it to CSR's related to PPAPs, or CSR's related to the customer in general. I believe if you think about the intent of the PPAP exercise in the first place, it is to demonstrate that in making this particular part number, you will be able to meet all the relevant requirements (dimensional, product performance, material properties, capabilty and stability of your processes...etc,). Therefore, it stands to reason, if the customer has a relevant CSR, it would be approrpiate to make mention of it, or demonstrate the requirement is met. That is how I look at it when doing audits. It is a somewhat broader interpretation, but clearly would meet the customer's needs, which is what a PPAP is all about.
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#4
This sub thread about PPAP is in fact not an answer to all the question and thus I have split the threads
Here is the original thread on CSR Do we have to show full compliance to all customer specific requirements
hjilling said:
The requirement is imprecise. It is not clear whether they mean to limit it to CSR's related to PPAPs, or CSR's related to the customer in general. I believe if you think about the intent of the PPAP exercise in the first place, it is to demonstrate that in making this particular part number, you will be able to meet all the relevant requirements (dimensional, product performance, material properties, capabilty and stability of your processes...etc,). Therefore, it stands to reason, if the customer has a relevant CSR, it would be approrpiate to make mention of it, or demonstrate the requirement is met. That is how I look at it when doing audits. It is a somewhat broader interpretation, but clearly would meet the customer's needs, which is what a PPAP is all about.
The exact requirement is
page 10:"The supplier shall have records of compliance to all applicable customer specific requirements. (See section II)" (my emphasis)
The PPAP hand book was released before ISO/TS16949:2002.
How do the big 3 manage document control does the publication of CSR's then cancel the content of section II? What if there is a conflict?
 
#5
Howard Atkins said:
page 10:"The supplier shall have records of compliance to all applicable customer specific requirements. (See section II)
I read this to mean the PPAP CSR's listed in Section II (pages 19 through 37). I have a truck customer that has confirmed this by requiring me to MSA EVERY guage and not families (II.4.5).

I assume that the rest of the CSRs are covered by your registrar's audit against the requirements of the companies listed on page two of your TS cert.

I have AIAG training for APQP, PPAP and FMEA for the next two days. I'll ask this question.
-Icy
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#6
Icy Mountain said:
I read this to mean the PPAP CSR's listed in Section II (pages 19 through 37). I have a truck customer that has confirmed this by requiring me to MSA EVERY guage and not families (II.4.5).

I assume that the rest of the CSRs are covered by your registrar's audit against the requirements of the companies listed on page two of your TS cert.

I have AIAG training for APQP, PPAP and FMEA for the next two days. I'll ask this question.
-Icy
The relevant CSRs are the ones that relate directly to the part(s) being submitted. In other words, if there are CSRs for say, EDI that apply to doing business with the customer in general, they don't have to be addressed in PPAP submissions.
 

Bigfoot

Involved - Posts
#7
JSW05 said:
The relevant CSRs are the ones that relate directly to the part(s) being submitted. In other words, if there are CSRs for say, EDI that apply to doing business with the customer in general, they don't have to be addressed in PPAP submissions.
I think you would also want to check CSR's for TS 16949, particularly if supplying one of the big 3. Ford has a CSR on Attribute GR&R that requires 50 pcs X 3 Trials X 3 Operators and is addressed in their CSR for TS 16949. So it is in the suppliers best interest to investigate all sources of the CSR's and ask the Customer about them as well. You never know they might waive some of them also. :rolleyes:
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#8
Bigfoot said:
I think you would also want to check CSR's for TS 16949, particularly if supplying one of the big 3. Ford has a CSR on Attribute GR&R that requires 50 pcs X 3 Trials X 3 Operators and is addressed in their CSR for TS 16949. So it is in the suppliers best interest to investigate all sources of the CSR's and ask the Customer about them as well. You never know they might waive some of them also. :rolleyes:
Perhaps I'm confused, but I don't think that the Ford MSA thing you refer to bears any direct relationship to TS 16949. It's certainly a CSR, and it's directly related to parts that involve attributes gaging (which means it's relevant) but looking in TS 16949 won't help if you're trying to learn what the CSRs are for any given customer. And as an aside, when (or if) the 4th Edition PPAP manual comes out, you won't be able to look there either--you'll have to go directly to the customer or iaob.org.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#9
Howard Atkins said:
This sub thread about PPAP is in fact not an answer to all the question and thus I have split the threads
Here is the original thread on CSR Do we have to show full compliance to all customer specific requirements


The exact requirement is
page 10:"The supplier shall have records of compliance to all applicable customer specific requirements. (See section II)" (my emphasis)
The PPAP hand book was released before ISO/TS16949:2002.
How do the big 3 manage document control does the publication of CSR's then cancel the content of section II? What if there is a conflict?

In my view, in case of conflicts, the TS standard would trump the PPAP manual, and a CSR would trump the TS standard (though that would probably be unlikely). Any remaining conflicts would be resolved by the customer or the IAOB, whichever is more relevant.
 
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