Management Review - Calendar Driven vs. Event Driven - Rant and question

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CliffK

Can some kind soul explain why TC 176, in its wisdom, made management reviews calendar driven rather than event driven?

<rant>
Should we not have the freedom to review some aspect of the quality system when we observe the need?

Conversely, should we not have the freedom to not review the system when there is no need?

In fact, there's a whole category of things that should be a pull, rather than a push:

- reviews of existing documents
- internal audits
- vendor re-evaluations

Maybe some other stuff I haven't thought of yet...
</rant>
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Leader
Admin
Re: Rant and question about management review

The standard sets minimum requirements. If an organization wants to do management reviews weekly, fortnightly or daily it is up to them.

Also, if you want to establish a pull system to review the issues you offered, I don't see any conflict with the standard.

Maybe you can offer an example of something you believe the standard prohibits a good thing from happening, it would be clearer.

My main beef with the TC 176 is on the wording of preventive actions, subject of a specific thread I created, some time ago.
 

Colin

Quite Involved in Discussions
Re: Rant and question about management review

I am not sure that management review is calendar driven. Clause 5.6 simply states that the reviews are at planned intervals - it doesn't mention time periods, it could be that you plan one after every 'round' of audits for example.

Now, your CB may have a contractual requirement for you to do at least 1 review/year but then you could say in your manual/procedure that you will conduct at least 1/year but they may also be conducted following internal audits, document reviews etc.
 

SteelMaiden

Super Moderator
Trusted Information Resource
And, it is certainly permissible to have "mini" reviews that only discuss some (or one) input at a time, as long as you manage to hit all the inputs/outputs on said "planned" interval. (again, as stated within your contract requirements with the registrar)
 
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CliffK

Re: Rant and question about management review

Sidney, I appreciate the reply.
The standard sets minimum requirements. If an organization wants to do management reviews weekly, fortnightly or daily it is up to them.
Yes, I get that part.
Also, if you want to establish a pull system to review the issues you offered, I don't see any conflict with the standard.
I believe the words in the standard are "planned intervals." That translates to things like weekly, monthly, quarterly, annually...

I think it makes a lot more sense to have a management review when some event in the quality management system indicates a need, not when some time interval has passed since the last review.
Maybe you can offer an example of something you believe the standard prohibits a good thing from happening, it would be clearer.
The standard doesn't prohibit an organization from using a pull system for scheduling management reviews. But it also requires reviews at a defined interval.

I realize that you could set up a system where the interval between reviews of internal audit results, for example, would be no longer than twelve months. Then if you needed an interim review, you could push the next review back by twelve months.

But that seems silly if the internal audit program is running okay. If the audit program needs resources or other support, sure, bring it up to the right level of management. If the audit program averts a gazillion dollar loss, make sure the big boss knows about it. And get your resources or do your braggin' at the time it happens.

But otherwise, why spend time on it? Why put together some kind of charts that say the audit program is performing as expected and improving it is not a current priority and it doesn't need executive attention? It seems to me like there are more important things to do.
My main beef with the TC 176 is on the wording of preventive actions, subject of a specific thread I created, some time ago.
That one grates on my nerves, too.
 
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CliffK

Re: Rant and question about management review

I am not sure that management review is calendar driven. Clause 5.6 simply states that the reviews are at planned intervals - it doesn't mention time periods, it could be that you plan one after every 'round' of audits for example.

Now, your CB may have a contractual requirement for you to do at least 1 review/year but then you could say in your manual/procedure that you will conduct at least 1/year but they may also be conducted following internal audits, document reviews etc.
Colin, how do you get around the words "planned intervals" in the standard? I interpret that to mean intervals of time, as measured on a calendar.

Seriously, if you can supply a good answer to that question I will be very grateful.
 
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CliffK

And, it is certainly permissible to have "mini" reviews that only discuss some (or one) input at a time, as long as you manage to hit all the inputs/outputs on said "planned" interval. (again, as stated within your contract requirements with the registrar)
Yes, and I have advised clients to do exactly that, with tighter intervals for more pressing topics.

Still, that "planned interval" thing is a real burr under my saddle.

Why spend time reviewing something just because the calendar has turned a page?
 

Wes Bucey

Prophet of Profit
When I interpreted "planned intervals" and "management review" - my thesis was that a management "review" was exactly that - a REVIEW! This meant there had to be "something to review." Typically, a review could be as simple as "a walk around the premises" or as detailed and involved as a formal review by a Board of Directors taking up an entire day of reports and presentations by staff and outside consultants. The key to whether it was actually a "review" was if it was

  • planned
  • had an agenda
  • had a record of taking place and the action (or non-action) decided
  • a schedule for evaluating the action taken
"Planned intervals" always meant MINIMUM intervals. An organization is always free to add more on an ad hoc basis. I scheduled FORMAL reviews to coincide with the review of internal audit reports.

Thus, in a small organization, ALL the internal audits might be completed annually or semiannually over one or two weeks and the formal management review might consider all those reports at one time. Obviously, some reports may require no action, positive or negative, and thus be dispatched with a record they were reviewed, whereas other audit reports might trigger intense discussion, review, plans of action, evaluations, outside experts, etc.

Conversely, in a large, even multi-site, organization
, internal audits might be in progress "somewhere" on a continual, regular basis, and preliminary management review may be delegated to "semi-top" management (individuals or committees) who may have limited authority

  • to accept "no action" reports with merely making a record,
  • to implement small actions with merely making a record,
  • but required to elevate BIG actions to even higher management for further review and action.
The frequency of the various reviews in such a large organization may range from weekly to quarterly because of the complexity of the organization, NOT because of some slavish adherence to an ISO-suggested schedule.

Simply, the SCHEDULE is dictated by circumstances within the organization. How frequently the reviews take place depends on the number and frequency of areas being audited and reviewed. The complexity of the review is also dictated by circumstances - some may be only "rubber stamp" reviews to have a record there was a review, but no action required or taken beyond recording the review. Some reviews (again, dictated by circumstances) may be complicated and drawn out, even resulting in some "bloodletting" as careers rise and fall on the basis of decisions made in the review. (Even Deming understood some individuals were not suited for a task and could not be "rehabilitated" and thus had to part ways with the organization!)

Added in edit:
In one organization, our management review of an entire Division resulted in a decision to divest the entire Division. The new buyer simply bought the business and relocated the operations to another state, taking ZERO employees and only some of the equipment. We "repurposed" the building to an expansion of another Division and hired back about 50% of the original employees - very tough decisions for EVERYONE involved.
 
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CliffK

When I interpreted "planned intervals" and "management review" - my thesis was that a management "review" was exactly that - a REVIEW!

<big snip> ...
Very well thought out and appropriate for a sizable organization.

But it's still marching to the calendar, isn't it?

That's what I want to get away from.
The complexity of the review is also dictated by circumstances - some may be only "rubber stamp" reviews to have a record there was a review, but no action required or taken beyond recording the review.
O man that hurts.
 
C

CliffK


Added in edit:
In one organization, our management review of an entire Division resulted in a decision to divest the entire Division. The new buyer simply bought the business and relocated the operations to another state, taking ZERO employees and only some of the equipment. We "repurposed" the building to an expansion of another Division and hired back about 50% of the original employees - very tough decisions for EVERYONE involved.
Were you the guy that brought the data to the table?
 
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