PPAP vs. Annual layout confusion - Customer "emergency PPAP" request

[Mark Paul]

I am a relatively new Qual Tech for a tier 1 supplier of small internal drivetrain do-dads to OEM's and their sub's e.g. GKN (whew!). It seems that every possible supplier is coming out of the woodwork asking for level 3#'s. Yet they don't want the sample parts, they just want my 24 pages of fresh data.
(BTW I have found that Most QE's are reading my doc's because they tell me how page 7 doesn't jibe with page16)

I understand that the customer is always right but shouldn't PPAP's be used for what their name sake is? Or print changes?

Why do so many large companies (DANA and GKN not exclusive) insist on "emergency PPAP's" because they have an audit coming up? Is it their paranoia? Beyond the customer always being right, are their any guidelines for people such as myself to go to a 1 million pc. volume/year cust. and suggest they just go with a warrant, MSA, 32 piece special characteristics check and a material cert?

When one is truly swamped, how best might one handle the situation?

Thanks

 

[Howard Atkins]

I am a relatively new Qual Tech for a tier 1 supplier of small internal drivetrain do-dads to OEM's and their sub's e.g. GKN (whew!). It seems that every possible supplier is coming out of the woodwork asking for level 3#'s. Yet they don't want the sample parts, they just want my 24 pages of fresh data.
(BTW I have found that Most QE's are reading my doc's because they tell me how page 7 doesn't jibe with page16)

I understand that the customer is always right but shouldn't PPAP's be used for what their name sake is? Or print changes?

Why do so many large companies (DANA and GKN not exclusive) insist on "emergency PPAP's" because they have an audit coming up? Is it their paranoia? Beyond the customer always being right, are their any guidelines for people such as myself to go to a 1 million pc. volume/year cust. and suggest they just go with a warrant, MSA, 32 piece special characteristics check and a material cert?

When one is truly swamped, how best might one handle the situation?

Thanks

Welcome to the cove
You do not say whether there was an approved PPAP at the start.
If there wasn't then there is some sort of failure at their end and you should have done the work anyway.
Are you QS or TS? Do you normally submit PPAP?
I agree that there is no reason why they have to request lev 3 but start checking where you were if you didn't supply.
Maybe if you have already got approval for the part you can start charging them!
Don't let them grind you down

 

[Bill Ryan - 2007]

Welcome to another fellow Badger

Been through that song and dance a few times.

What type of product are you making? One of my issues with an annual PPAP is with the dimensional layout results. We will, invariably, have an "insignificant" radius or rib thickness out of tolerance. When asking my customers "What do we do now?", the pat answer is "fix it". This is not always the best solution in die casting. But I'm off topic already......

Regarding your question, I have given my customers differing time lines dependant on what they truly require. Capability studies and Gage R&Rs we are pretty good at keeping updated within a 12 month period. PFMEAs and Control Plans are pretty well kept up also. As mentioned above, the 100% dimensional layout is a different matter - if we have multiple cavity sets currently in production, they either get the last layout or they must wait until we can cycle through all currently production (PPAP) approved cavities. If they wish to interrupt our production scheduling, they are given a fairly hefty setup cost. (It's kind of funny that, many times, when the "wait date" doesn't match up with their audit schedule, a "level 1" is all they end up needing )

 

[Mark Paul]

Thanks for the 2 quick reply's. We are audited twice a year for ts16949 and we are automotive internal engine, transmission component suppliers. They are small items, some as small as a dime, others, larger than a calculator,yet multifacateted and radii'd(up to 40 call outs for me to number on a print). We suppy direct to the alphabet; DCX to Toyota, and their sub's GKN and Dana among tons of others.

The PPAP's are already done in many cases. I understand when they have a print change but there seems to be no reason except (sometimes international) ignorannce that they don't ask for level #1's vs. 3's for annuals.

Howard's suggestion that we charge for annuals was just brought up a few weeks ago. I looked at the threads on the cove for guidance there. Problem is that these are existing contracts.....further research neeeded there. Excellent idea if we could make QC a "profit center" vs. just another nessesary support function.
2 more followup questions:

Is $1250.00 A number that would get noticed but not be outlandish?

What is an "Annual" by most definitions anyway?

TSA,PFMEA,CP,CPHeatTreat, I put on a happy face but the customer must be satisfied. More guidance Gents?

See you at ASQ in MAy 06.

 

[Jim Wynne]

The PPAP's are already done in many cases. I understand when they have a print change but there seems to be no reason except (sometimes international) ignorannce that they don't ask for level #1's vs. 3's for annuals.

The difference between the various PPAP levels exists only in what gets submitted and not in what actually gets done. Even if your customer asks for a Level 1 submission, you're still expected to have all of the relevant elements, so I don't understand the problem.

Howard's suggestion that we charge for annuals was just brought up a few weeks ago. I looked at the threads on the cove for guidance there. Problem is that these are existing contracts.....further research neeeded there. Excellent idea if we could make QC a "profit center" vs. just another nessesary support function.
Is $1250.00 A number that would get noticed but not be outlandish

How and when (and for how much money) PPAP gets submitted is a matter of contract review. What did you agree to in the beginning? The AIAG PPAP manual (at least until March 1) defines the events that trigger submissions, those that require notification to the customer, and those that don't require notification or submission. If your agreement with customers specifies annual submissions, then you either need to renegotiate or do the submissions. As I said earlier, whether it's a Level 1 or Level 3 is irrelevant because you have to compile the data in either case.

What is an "Annual" by most definitions anyway?

It varies with the customer. For some it's a full PPAP submission and for other it might be just a dimensional layout and/or performance testing.

 

[Bill Ryan - 2007]

The difference between the various PPAP levels exists only in what gets submitted and not in what actually gets done. Even if your customer asks for a Level 1 submission, you're still expected to have all of the relevant elements, so I don't understand the problem.



How and when (and for how much money) PPAP gets submitted is a matter of contract review. What did you agree to in the beginning? The AIAG PPAP manual (at least until March 1) defines the events that trigger submissions, those that require notification to the customer, and those that don't require notification or submission. If your agreement with customers specifies annual submissions, then you either need to renegotiate or do the submissions. As I said earlier, whether it's a Level 1 or Level 3 is irrelevant because you have to compile the data in either case.



It varies with the customer. For some it's a full PPAP submission and for other it might be just a dimensional layout and/or performance testing.

While I certainly agree with your response, the OP mentioned something about an impending audit. That implies (to me) that there probably is nothing in the CSRs or contract that an annual PPAP is required much less what level is to be submitted.

 

[Jim Wynne]

While I certainly agree with your response, the OP mentioned something about an impending audit. That implies (to me) that there probably is nothing in the CSRs or contract that an annual PPAP is required much less what level is to be submitted.

If it hasn't been agreed to beforehand (as I stated earlier), then the supplier is within its rights to protest and reopen the existing agreement. Allowing a customer to make the business equivalent of unfunded mandates is a very slippery slope; with many, it's give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile. Customers should be prepared to pay for what they're asking for, but a lot of customers (especially big ones) will use bullying tactics to get what they want. It makes it difficult for small suppliers to draw the line between making a prudent accommodation and giving away the store just to keep the business.

 

[Mark Paul]

PPAP vs. Annual layout confusion

Sorry to have brought on the misunderstanding. what I meant was that the work IS all done. So in that regard it wouldn't matter if it is just a warrant or a level 3. It is just the 4 to 8 hours to pull the various data off inspection sheets or measure on the contracer, or pull test on the MTS etc. and then enter it in their format etc. (If they came in for a visit, I could show them the reams of data and the 'proof' would be in front of them and that would only take 1/2 hour, I could print them a warrant and they would be on their way)

I guess that is seems that a level 3 seems to be a default by many customers and I'll have to ask sales to look at the contracts, as I have, and found the question of how often to submit full layouts to be very grey by both parties.

I suppose we should have a standard, non-threatening, clause in the contract stating that pulling the 'tons of paperwork' together outside of a print change or other AIAG PPAP defined event would cost a nominal fee of $xxx.

to that end;
1. does anyone have std. contract language that they can share w/ me?
2. what is a non-threatening price to charge for the extra work that is truely busywork? $625, $875 $1250?

Thanks

 

[Jim Wynne]

Sorry to have brought on the misunderstanding. what I meant was that the work IS all done. So in that regard it wouldn't matter if it is just a warrant or a level 3. It is just the 4 to 8 hours to pull the various data off inspection sheets or measure on the contracer, or pull test on the MTS etc. and then enter it in their format etc. (If they came in for a visit, I could show them the reams of data and the 'proof' would be in front of them and that would only take 1/2 hour, I could print them a warrant and they would be on their way)
Thanks

My own expectation is that when a Level x PPAP is requested of a supplier, a complete PPAP package will be compiled and filed by the supplier, and be available immediately. You haven't done PPAP if all of the information is still scattered all over the building. If at the time you sign the warrant, there isn't a compliant PPAP package available, you're not doing PPAP, imo.

 

[Mark Paul]

Thanks, I am learning alot about semantics too! A complete PPAP is done already to the current print. It's just not updated to the parts that ran off the machine last week which is what the customer is leading me to believe they are asking for. That is why we would like to charge them $ for the extra work that is quite duplicitous to the PPAP on file.

It may go back to the contract but a recent example is a Brazilian company that requested a re-PPAP this past friday just as I was filing their signed PSW for the exact same part. Nothing changed. Not the print or CP or PFMEA-wise.

Maybe thier trying to look busy as to not have their jobs eliminated.