Documents vs. Forms - Is there any difference?

[Griff23]

Hello, I have recently taken on the ISO responsabilitys at my company. After reveiwing the QMS, I found that we have 56 different documents and/or forms. And I have a few questions.

1) Is there an actual difference between calling something a form or a document? (The former Quality Manager calls them both names throughout the QMS manual)

2) Do all forms / documents require a document number and revision level on them?

3) Do I need document numbers and revision levels on printed documentation generated from our MRP Sytem? (i.e. PO, packing slip, RMA, etc...)

Most of these forms / documents are redundent and I plan on removing or modifying as many as I can to decrease the amount we have.

Thank you
Griff23

 

[Jim Wynne]

Re: Documents vs. Forms

1) Is there an actual difference between calling something a form or a document? (The former Quality Manager calls them both names throughout the QMS manual)

It makes no difference what you call them. What matters is what gets controlled.

2) Do all forms / documents require a document number and revision level on them?

No. There's more than one way to control documents. You can avoid controlling forms, for example, by specifying the required information and not the format. It might be better to have a controlled format, but it isn't required.

3) Do I need document numbers and revision levels on printed documentation generated from our MRP Sytem? (i.e. PO, packing slip, RMA, etc...)

You may or may not need to control those things. Look at 4.2.3 and 4.2.4 for the requirements; as long as those requirements are satisfied, it doesn't matter what method is used.

 

[Marc]

1. A form is a type of document. It is something that is used to collect data. At that point it becomes a record.

2. No, but they must have some type of identifier. Small companies often just use the document title or if electronic (e.g.: a .doc or .xls file) the file name.

3. I can't speak to MRP systems. I'm sure one of the others here will comment on that aspect.

Also see: Documents and Records - Difference between and How to control Documents and Records?

 

[somashekar]

3) Do I need document numbers and revision levels on printed documentation generated from our MRP Sytem? (i.e. PO, packing slip, RMA, etc...)

An MRP is a controlled process in itself that generates unique identifier for all your stated documents. So it is built into.

 

[Griff23]

Somashekar, I never thought of the MRP system as a controlled process, but it makes sense.

Thanks for the input!

 

[ssz102]

first, the difference between form and document as below:
the former is used records the implement results such as process runing or daily process; the later is used to describe how to implement a process or flow;
from my own experience as quality system engineer, i think it is necessary to mark NO. and revision level

regarding the third question, i have not give you any suggestion, sorry

 

[AndyN]

You may wish to hold your horses on the reduction of documentation...

You are putting yourself at risk. Throughout multiple posts here over the years, it's clear (to me anyway) that too many people take on a QMS as their 'baby'. It isn't! It's management's. People who ride into town and start removing documents without any input or solicitation from the document's natural owner, run many risks, including being blamed for subsequent audit non-conformities. I'd suggest treading with real caution. Do some audits of the use of these documents, before you summarily dismiss them. Get the users input as to the value they provide and, if there's an opportunity to rationalize, enlist them to make the decision. Get them to take ownership. Otherwise you'll end up owning it and all the problems that go with that!

 

[kgott]

Hello, I have recently taken on the ISO responsabilitys at my company. After reveiwing the QMS, I found that we have 56 different documents and/or forms. And I have a few questions.

1) Is there an actual difference between calling something a form or a document? (The former Quality Manager calls them both names throughout the QMS manual)

Griff23

Perhaps a way to get round this problem which causes a lot of debate, is to simply use the term "documentation" as much as possible.

In my view, distinguishing between forms and other documentation is a hair splitting exercise. A form is a document that exists in the form of a form, to put it that way.

In my last position I had scientists who drew a distinction between a form and a template.

 

[Griff23]

AndyN, I agree with your caution and I actually take steps to help prevent issues prior to any changes. I do not make any changes to our QMS without preparing the pro's and con's of a change and reviewing the potential changes with upper management as well as the employees that may be effected by the changes. I then make the changes we all agree on, then have everyone review one more time before implementing. I also take this step when creating anything new.

As an example of documentation I want to remove is our RMA process. Currently we use an RMA request, RMA notice, RMA verification, RMA disposition, and RMA log. I then have to use MRB log, MRB review, and MRB follow up. Thats 8 documents for an RMA! There are 5 documents for an Internal Audit.

My plan is to consolidate the critical information to a single document (more if necessary) or to remove completely and use our MRP system, which we are grossly under utilizing at this time.

 

[mortby]

The emphasis within 9001 is that you have a system that is appropriate to your business and works for you.

There are 6 mandatory procedures, the rest is up to you based on what adds value to your business.

I find this can be quite a difficult balance between giving enough information for people to do their jobs and not giving them so much that it makes them non-compliant for no reason.

I personally have set up my quality system with 4 tiers of documents:
Tier 1 - High level strategy (quality manual, quality policy, org chart, etc)
Tier 2 - Procedures (e.g. document control, training etc) - these are pretty high level and describe how the processes work, they apply to everyone and support general awareness and understanding of quality. These documents are my 'what we do', for example, I have a procedure that tells me I need to raise a purchase order, but a tier 3 document that tells me how.
Tier 3 - Work Instructions (e.g. how to assemble product A, or how to generate a purchase order) - these are detailed instructions on how to achieve something. These documents are my 'how we do it'.
Tier 4 - Forms and Templates (words used interchangeably) - these are the blanks that I put out where I want to make sure that every time that activity is recorded it is done in the same way.

I was at a presentation the other day talking about combining quality systems from different units. They were talking about a 70% reduction in the number of documents in the system. That really worried me and I always find I balk when people talk about reducing numbers of documents without actually understanding the business need driving the document.
I can reduce the number of documents by writing one massive document that tells everyone everything about our business. Noone would use it because they would never find what they're looking for. I would far rather have 20 documents that are simple and easy to use and all link together than one that doesn't really work.

Don't worry about the number of documents you have, focus on what your business needs are and how you want people to interact with your system. If you find you have multiple documents doing the same job, by all means, combine and reduce them, that's improving the efficiency of the process and making people's lives easier. Just watch out for people wanting to reduce documents for the sake of numbers of documents.