Annual Requirements - TS 16949 - 8.2.4.1 Layout Inspection and Functional Testing

I'm not sure if I'm in the correct forum or not but had a quick question. There has been some confusion in our company regarding annual layouts. We are currently going for TS2 certification and are in disagreement, are annual layouts a TS2 requirement, customer specific, or QS requirement?

Thanks in advance for your help!
Billie Jean

TS 8.2.4.1 Layout inspection and functional testing
....as specified in control plans.
Does not specify annually

However, Customer Specific Requirements, such as Visteon, stipulate annual layout in about 4 different areas of their requirements.

ralphsulser said:

TS 8.2.4.1 Layout inspection and functional testing
....as specified in control plans.
Does not specify annually

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And what about, it is not specified in control plan and control plan is approved by customer, who does not care about it?

Additionally, am I allowed to limit "all product dimensions shown on the design records" to list of dimensions approved by customer, normally checked by gauge and additionally measured due to 8.2.4.1?

Can a person family products on annual layouts if it is cut by the same tools and same machines as similar products?

Sebastian said:

And what about, it is not specified in control plan and control plan is approved by customer, who does not care about it?

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In the past I believed that if it was not a customer requirement and not in the control plan it was not required.
I have been corrected by the CB that I work for who say that according to IAOB (the US oversight body) instructions, 8.2.4.1 means that the layout must be in the control plan- there are no timing requirements apart from those of the customer.

Sebastian said:

Additionally, am I allowed to limit "all product dimensions shown on the design records" to list of dimensions approved by customer, normally checked by gauge and additionally measured due to 8.2.4.1?

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This is certainly not an option.

The timing part of it can also be decided by the organization depending upon the extent of use of the tool, mould, etc... Being on the control plan is a good process interaction, however timing can be annual or earlier or bi-annual with proper and scientific justification for such time interval. The intent of this is perhaps to avoid surprises in volume production. The intent and purpose of layout inspection has to be made well into the process and activities. I am not sure if the TS uses the word " annual " ??

JamesHawes said:

Can a person family products on annual layouts if it is cut by the same tools and same machines as similar products?

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I guess it can be ... if you have good justification to prove it.

Hi All,
probably covered elsewhere and answered before, but for Toyota, which don't directly require a layout inspection but TS does, is it ok to do it to the Parts Inspection Standard ( which is used for the approval procedure) or a full drawing review.
cheers

AlanC said:

Hi All,
probably covered elsewhere and answered before, but for Toyota, which don't directly require a layout inspection but TS does, is it ok to do it to the Parts Inspection Standard ( which is used for the approval procedure) or a full drawing review.
cheers

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I'm not sure what your Parts Inspection Standard is. Are you asking if you have to measure all dimensions? The short story is yes. See the note:

ISO/TS 16949 clause 8.2.4.1 said:

NOTE Layout inspection is the complete measurement of all product dimensions shown on the design records.

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Hi All,

Do we need to add in layout inspection and functional testing in control plan as a process flow?