Companies that offer to help you get certification only give you the bare minimum

[AndyN]

Thanks to all who replied,


FLOW CHART

b) determine the sequence and interaction of these processes

c) a description of the interaction between the processes of the quality management system.


-> Well this is what drives me mad about the the 9001, the ambiguity.

Look I don't expect to get spoonfed, but next you'll be telling me I can 'describe' our company flow chart in the form of a poem written in cow poop on the front wall of our office entrance - as long as I document it.

I realise that the standard has to cover a variety of industries, but are there no basic guidelines I can follow? Examples? Another companies certification? A wiki?

Reading the requirements manual one 'could' infer that you should document every single process in the company down to signing a register when helping yourself to more staples. And then document the documenting of the staple register.

Yearly, weekly, daily internal audits? Why would a daily internal audit be too much when I feel a yearly internal audit is too much. By what objective measure can I say that a yearly audit is better than doing one every 5 years?

How does a noob determine how much much detail is necessary?

It seems to me that your frustration is borne out of a lack of understanding of the 'big picture' of how the ISO 9001 requirements work, which is completely understandable! The consultants - even if they only said they'd get you to certification - didn't (apparently) do a good job of explaining anything! What were they contracted to do?

Partly, your lack of knowledge - take for example your questions about auditing - would be answered by attending a good audit training course, unless you like reading, in which case Craig Cochran's book - ISO in Plain English - is great!

 

[AndyN]

As to Internal Audits. I audit my procedures/processes once a year. And since you had such a wonderful Company helping you, I would say maybe you should think of doing the same, just because something could have been missed, you find that you can make improvements in certain areas. Internal audits are there to help you to improve your System.

Somewhat but apropos a comment made by the OP - how does 1 audit a year (albeit of all procedures/processes) meet the 'status and importance' requirements of ISO 9001? Or hasn't your CB ever made an issue of it?

 

[Wes Bucey]

I'm disappointed about the perception of consultants in general conveyed by OP.

My guess is OP was NOT the guy selecting the consultant nor involved in reviewing the consultant's contract with his organization. Most consultants of my acquaintance (my definition in Consulting – Is it in YOUR Career Future?) are capable of offering a full array of services similar to this clip of my own presentation material

Here are some "should have" criteria for the target organizations:

• I deal with chief executive and/or Board of Directors directly and interact with any or all staff as necessary
• organization should be in self-perceived "crisis" due to pressure from time, regulators, or customers
• I don't do work by myself, but will "mentor and advise" existing staff to do it so they can continue when I am gone (for example, I don't "perform" Gap Analysis by myself, but will help personnel learn how to do it themselves, keyed to the organization's circumstances, and will review and suggest modifications as required)
• There is no minimum term for the assignment - some issues could be resolved in as little as one or two days, but still be important to the organization and pertinent for my book.
• the maximum term might be as long as a year, but would involve my full time presence for only a fraction of the time to help personnel learn to do a task, returning from time to time for evaluation and suggestions for improvement
• organization may be any size, from small business to transnational giant.

Some of the perceived "crisis" situations might be, but are not limited to:

• seeking registration to a Standard due to outside pressure
• "re-engineering" an organization which needs major Kaizen events to become competitive in its market
• "assimilating" a recent takeover of an organization with a different culture
• "fairness opinions" when selling an organization or creating an Employee Stock Ownership Plan (ESOP) or Initial Public Offering (IPO)
• Complying with Sarbannes-Oxley Act for public corporations
• new product introduction (production and marketing)
• achieving government certification in a regulated industry
• negotiating with aggressive customers
• negotiating with banks, financiers, equity investors
• adopting and assimilating new technologies (such as Electronic Document Management or Customer Relationship Management)

Above all, I want to leave the organization in better shape than I found it. Fees will be negotiated in each instance. There is no guarantee I will take any assignment, but if I refuse one, I will make a suggestion for other sources of help. I will not charge for such a suggestion, but the source may charge for its services.

I guess the primary or root cause of the poor perception of consultants lies with the selection criteria and evaluation of consulting services available versus "required and requested" by the organization.

My mom always cited a favorite slogan, "Penny wise and pound foolish" when describing folks who used price rather than value as the main criterion in making a purchase.

 

[PotentCompoundSafety]

Having been on both sides of the fence, make sure you clearly understand what kind of support your consultant will provide post-audit or registration. I know sometimes consultants can seem extremely expensive, but the good ones are worth every dime. On the other hand, as a consultant, I've run into several clients that I have avoided doing future work for because they expected everything to be at no-charge post-project. It's a fine balancing act, but when choosing a consulting firm make sure that references are checked and develop a relationship prior to sign on the dotted line. Consulting firms are just like any other company, they have financial goals that they are expected to meet by their management. The profit margins that a typical consulting firm achieves is significantly less than many other industries. Consulting is not as scalable as building widgets.

 

[harry]

From my experience over here, very few people understand the meaning of 'Consultancy'. If you do, you will know that how much you can get out from them is up to you.

Unfortunately, quality managements concepts are new to many over here and by the time they had a grasp of it, the job/engagement is over and they missed the chance to get anything but the basic out of it.

If one wants to get more, they should be prepared or be equipped with some basic knowledge first. Coming to a site like the Cove will help in this aspect.

 

[Helmut Jilling]

Thanks to all who replied,


FLOW CHART

b) determine the sequence and interaction of these processes

c) a description of the interaction between the processes of the quality management system.


-> Well this is what drives me mad about the the 9001, the ambiguity.

Look I don't expect to get spoonfed, but next you'll be telling me I can 'describe' our company flow chart in the form of a poem written in cow poop on the front wall of our office entrance - as long as I document it.

I realise that the standard has to cover a variety of industries, but are there no basic guidelines I can follow? Examples? Another companies certification? A wiki?

Reading the requirements manual one 'could' infer that you should document every single process in the company down to signing a register when helping yourself to more staples. And then document the documenting of the staple register.

Yearly, weekly, daily internal audits? Why would a daily internal audit be too much when I feel a yearly internal audit is too much. By what objective measure can I say that a yearly audit is better than doing one every 5 years?

How does a noob determine how much much detail is necessary?

You should read the ISO 9004 standard. I think it would answer a lot of what you are seeking. ISO 9001 was written as a baseline, minimum set of requirements for certification, and is used by 1,000,000 companies. ISO 9004 is written for companies who want to get more effectiveness and improvement from their efforts and is used by a few companies....What is wrong with this picture. I wish they made it a requirement to read and apply relevant bits. Every company should, in my opinion.

 

[Helmut Jilling]

It seems to me that your frustration is borne out of a lack of understanding of the 'big picture' of how the ISO 9001 requirements work, which is completely understandable! The consultants - even if they only said they'd get you to certification - didn't (apparently) do a good job of explaining anything! What were they contracted to do?

Partly, your lack of knowledge - take for example your questions about auditing - would be answered by attending a good audit training course, unless you like reading, in which case Craig Cochran's book - ISO in Plain English - is great!

I agree, some good training would be insightful. However, I am not sure what "good tarining" is available in South Africa. There are some good consultants out there. I am finishing up with a client who will go through their certification soon, and I expect it will go well. If good training is not available, read the ISO 9004 standard, Craig's book, and several other good books from ASQ. It will help you a lot and only cost a few hundred dollars US.

 

[Andymo]

Thanks to all who replied. The comments were not implied as criticism of all consultants.

While I was not part of the implementation, I now have been handed the management of our QM system.

Please understand my frustration at what appears to be 'extra work' just to satisfy our customer requirements. If we simply stretch our documentation to simply document the existing working processes - then by my thinking we are just creating more toil for ourselves.

Will definitely purchase 'ISO in Plain English'

There are a couple of international courses here in SA on the ISO 9001, will look into attending them.

 

[Geoff Withnell]

Well the poem would be allowed, but is that the most effective way to communicate? Here's the deal. The minimum is just that, the minimum. The consultant set you up with that, and you got the cert on the wall. He did an absolutely crappy job, in my not very humble opinion, because the important part comes next. As you are working through the issues, problems and triumphs/disasters of your organization, what works? What didn't work, because you needed more information? What was just a pain in the lower spine, but didn't help because it was just trivia? If the poem in cow dung was the best way to figure how the system works, go for it. Most people find a process chart easier, however. Document control is my favorite. Do you have enough documentation so people know how to do the job, and enough records to know what was done and meet gov't requirements. Do you people all have the latest info and only the correct info? If the answers to these question s are all yes, then you have a good doc control system.

Geoff Withnell

Thanks to all who replied,


FLOW CHART

b) determine the sequence and interaction of these processes

c) a description of the interaction between the processes of the quality management system.

W
-> Well this is what drives me mad about the the 9001, the ambiguity.

Look I don't expect to get spoonfed, but next you'll be telling me I can 'describe' our company flow chart in the form of a poem written in cow poop on the front wall of our office entrance - as long as I document it.




I realise that the standard has to cover a variety of industries, but are there no basic guidelines I can follow? Examples? Another companies certification? A wiki?

Reading the requirements manual one 'could' infer that you should document every single process in the company down to signing a register when helping yourself to more staples. And then document the documenting of the staple register.

Yearly, weekly, daily internal audits? Why would a daily internal audit be too much when I feel a yearly internal audit is too much. By what objective measure can I say that a yearly audit is better than doing one every 5 years?

How does a noob determine how much much detail is necessary?

 

[AndyN]

Thanks to all who replied. The comments were not implied as criticism of all consultants.

While I was not part of the implementation, I now have been handed the management of our QM system.

Please understand my frustration at what appears to be 'extra work' just to satisfy our customer requirements. If we simply stretch our documentation to simply document the existing working processes - then by my thinking we are just creating more toil for ourselves.

Will definitely purchase 'ISO in Plain English'

There are a couple of international courses here in SA on the ISO 9001, will look into attending them.

If you are now, in effect, the 'Management Representative', you must put your prejudices aside and work hard on improving your knowledge of how the system is supposed to work and identify how to get from the situation you've inherited to where the organization should be. You'll find much more assistance available to you, once you've got a grasp on what the standard's about, what implementation involves and what could be - rather than for us to try to individually address each of your (understandable) frustrations.

There is work to be done - sure you may do some documentation of your existing processes - but everyone has to do that and, later it pays off, often as the business grows, you won't be trying to 'find out' what happened. It's part of a business (and people) maturity process. It's not always fun, sexy or easy, but it has to be done - if you are to succeed.