Subject: Re: Registration Costs /Scalies/Kohn/Dey/Vianna
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:58:10 -0600
From: ISO Standards Discussion <[email protected]>
From: "Vianna, Sidney" <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: Registration Costs /Scalies/Kohn/Dey/Vianna
> Quoted from Pat Dey <[email protected]>:
" . . .Everyone in industry has to compete to improve productivity
whilst maintaining quality. Indeed, that's often what "quality" is
> about. Why should registrars be immune? . . ."
Pat, how do you measure registrar's productivity? Registrar's productivity should not be measured by how quickly an audit can be performed. If that was the case, what would be the measure of highest productivity? Perform an audit of a company with 10,000 employees with one auditor in half day? What about over a phone call? Obviously nothing would get accomplished. Still, some "registrars" would love to be able to do just that, if they were not concerned with losing their accreditation status.
Registrar's productivity, while an important issue, is a secondary matter, when compared to registrar's integrity. If the certification process of management systems, by third-party entities, degenerates to a point where Society, at large, perceives no value, it will go away. This whole ISO 9000 Industry will vanish. 3rd party certificates will cease to exist. I can only speculate what would be the outcome: First, a return to the multiplicity of 2nd party audits by your customers, performed by auditors that, many times, want to micro-manage your organization. For those who have experienced this, they know how costly and detrimental to business it can be.
Second, selection of your suppliers by "gut feeling". In this era of "globalization", can your company cost-effectively qualify a supplier in Hong Kong? In a perfect world, if that supplier in HK had a 3rd party ISO 9001 certificate, wouldn't that instil confidence in you that they are a capable supplier?
Third, a return to massive supplier quality departments. How costly is that?
Inferring that registrars should make their audits shorter and faster, to "increase productivity", without realizing the ramifications in terms of compromising thoroughness, integrity, in-depth investigations and assessments, is wrong. Imagine if we apply this concept to a college environment, and in order to increase "productivity", students will graduate in 3 months rather than the 4 or 5 years. Does that make sense? What about a hospital that "in order to increase productivity" requires that all brain surgeries must be no longer than 22 minutes?
Being an insider in this Industry, my personal opinion is that the Accreditation Agencies need to enhance their "policing activities". Failure to do so might send this process in a downward spiral where in order to remain competitive, registrars might compromise their services which would lead to a decrease in confidence of 3rd party certificates. If 3rd part certificates bear no or little value, registrants will most certainly seek the cheapest, easiest and fastest certificate, feeding back to the vicious loop..
As an example of the need for policing: QS-9000 3rd Ed. App. H states: ". . .The number of hours per day required for an "auditor day" shall be defined as not less than eight hours of a 24-hour day per auditor on-site performing the audit. . . ."
Why would they make this requirement so explicit? Because there were registrars performing QS audits claiming that, in their interpretation a man-day constitutes 6 hours of work. So, if the auditor stayed at the facility 9 hours, it would count as one and a half day of audit. This is just one example of how registrars might want to find loopholes and "beat the system".
For those of you that think that external audits do not add value, can you please tell me what is the value of taking exams going through college? If you think that just attending classes and reading books will make you a doctor, engineer, physicist, etc . . . what is the point of testing your knowledge? You should be able to self-certify at the end of the program that you have comprehended all the body of knowledge required in your chosen profession, shouldn't you? What is wrong with that? I think we should extend this concept to other areas. Any company should be able to self proclaim a Malcolm Baldrige award criteria-compliant organization. Any individual should be able to self proclaim a certified quality manager, cqa, cqe, etc . . . No more IRS forms or audits, everybody self proclaims to be a compliant tax-payer. Just a thought.
Regards,
Sidney Vianna
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:58:10 -0600
From: ISO Standards Discussion <[email protected]>
From: "Vianna, Sidney" <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: Registration Costs /Scalies/Kohn/Dey/Vianna
> Quoted from Pat Dey <[email protected]>:
" . . .Everyone in industry has to compete to improve productivity
whilst maintaining quality. Indeed, that's often what "quality" is
> about. Why should registrars be immune? . . ."
Pat, how do you measure registrar's productivity? Registrar's productivity should not be measured by how quickly an audit can be performed. If that was the case, what would be the measure of highest productivity? Perform an audit of a company with 10,000 employees with one auditor in half day? What about over a phone call? Obviously nothing would get accomplished. Still, some "registrars" would love to be able to do just that, if they were not concerned with losing their accreditation status.
Registrar's productivity, while an important issue, is a secondary matter, when compared to registrar's integrity. If the certification process of management systems, by third-party entities, degenerates to a point where Society, at large, perceives no value, it will go away. This whole ISO 9000 Industry will vanish. 3rd party certificates will cease to exist. I can only speculate what would be the outcome: First, a return to the multiplicity of 2nd party audits by your customers, performed by auditors that, many times, want to micro-manage your organization. For those who have experienced this, they know how costly and detrimental to business it can be.
Second, selection of your suppliers by "gut feeling". In this era of "globalization", can your company cost-effectively qualify a supplier in Hong Kong? In a perfect world, if that supplier in HK had a 3rd party ISO 9001 certificate, wouldn't that instil confidence in you that they are a capable supplier?
Third, a return to massive supplier quality departments. How costly is that?
Inferring that registrars should make their audits shorter and faster, to "increase productivity", without realizing the ramifications in terms of compromising thoroughness, integrity, in-depth investigations and assessments, is wrong. Imagine if we apply this concept to a college environment, and in order to increase "productivity", students will graduate in 3 months rather than the 4 or 5 years. Does that make sense? What about a hospital that "in order to increase productivity" requires that all brain surgeries must be no longer than 22 minutes?
Being an insider in this Industry, my personal opinion is that the Accreditation Agencies need to enhance their "policing activities". Failure to do so might send this process in a downward spiral where in order to remain competitive, registrars might compromise their services which would lead to a decrease in confidence of 3rd party certificates. If 3rd part certificates bear no or little value, registrants will most certainly seek the cheapest, easiest and fastest certificate, feeding back to the vicious loop..
As an example of the need for policing: QS-9000 3rd Ed. App. H states: ". . .The number of hours per day required for an "auditor day" shall be defined as not less than eight hours of a 24-hour day per auditor on-site performing the audit. . . ."
Why would they make this requirement so explicit? Because there were registrars performing QS audits claiming that, in their interpretation a man-day constitutes 6 hours of work. So, if the auditor stayed at the facility 9 hours, it would count as one and a half day of audit. This is just one example of how registrars might want to find loopholes and "beat the system".
For those of you that think that external audits do not add value, can you please tell me what is the value of taking exams going through college? If you think that just attending classes and reading books will make you a doctor, engineer, physicist, etc . . . what is the point of testing your knowledge? You should be able to self-certify at the end of the program that you have comprehended all the body of knowledge required in your chosen profession, shouldn't you? What is wrong with that? I think we should extend this concept to other areas. Any company should be able to self proclaim a Malcolm Baldrige award criteria-compliant organization. Any individual should be able to self proclaim a certified quality manager, cqa, cqe, etc . . . No more IRS forms or audits, everybody self proclaims to be a compliant tax-payer. Just a thought.
Regards,
Sidney Vianna
