D
dbzman
What does the AIAG manual say about the frequency of MSA. Does it require annual analysis or is this determined by customer requirements/contract?
Thanks!
Thanks!
What the AIAG manual says about the frequency of MSA - Measurement system analysis
C
Cesar2005
In my case, the MSA study is conducted on any of the following events:
1) Changes/adjustment on appraisers and/or measurement tools
2) Calibration
3) PReventive Maintenance
4) Significant changes on part being measured
The key is on the determination of the appropriate calibration frequency. This should be determined statistically based on stability of the measurement system. For a very stable measurement system the Calibration is set once a year hence by condition 2 mentioned above you have at the minimum 1 MSA study per year.
1) Changes/adjustment on appraisers and/or measurement tools
2) Calibration
3) PReventive Maintenance
4) Significant changes on part being measured
The key is on the determination of the appropriate calibration frequency. This should be determined statistically based on stability of the measurement system. For a very stable measurement system the Calibration is set once a year hence by condition 2 mentioned above you have at the minimum 1 MSA study per year.
M
Mr.1Putt
Advice needed.
I've been given a CI project in trying to lowering the cost of calibration used by the company. We are spending close to $100000 on calibration cost.
Can I use a stability study to suggest that calibration to be less frequent? I was told that this can be a loophole in the system.
The only problem I see with if it works is under Visteon's Customer Specific it requires that MSA studies be done yearly as part of annual layout verification.
Even if I get around doing it less via positive stability study it doesn't look like I can get around doing calibration/msa study for gages related to Visteon, correct?
Even 1 per year is going to cost...
Thanks
I've been given a CI project in trying to lowering the cost of calibration used by the company. We are spending close to $100000 on calibration cost.
Can I use a stability study to suggest that calibration to be less frequent? I was told that this can be a loophole in the system.
The only problem I see with if it works is under Visteon's Customer Specific it requires that MSA studies be done yearly as part of annual layout verification.
Even if I get around doing it less via positive stability study it doesn't look like I can get around doing calibration/msa study for gages related to Visteon, correct?
Even 1 per year is going to cost...
Thanks
Do they actually check or care?
1) Our registrar actually pointed out that we could save time and money by increasing our cal frequency from a default 6 months to a longer period. As you suggest this was justified by stability data from that last few calibrations. We now have things at 3, 5, and even 10 years!
2) Bad luck with the Visteon CSR, it trumps everything. But, have they ever checked? Do they care enough to check? You could just go ahead and stop doing MSA yearly. Then take a CAR if and when they find it. Comply when caught. Not pretty but.....some risk is OK in business, and perhaps Visteon will disappear soon anyway.
Mr.1Putt said:
Mr.1Putt said:
1) Our registrar actually pointed out that we could save time and money by increasing our cal frequency from a default 6 months to a longer period. As you suggest this was justified by stability data from that last few calibrations. We now have things at 3, 5, and even 10 years!
2) Bad luck with the Visteon CSR, it trumps everything. But, have they ever checked? Do they care enough to check? You could just go ahead and stop doing MSA yearly. Then take a CAR if and when they find it. Comply when caught. Not pretty but.....some risk is OK in business, and perhaps Visteon will disappear soon anyway.
It is silent
dbzman
I have looked long and hard, and have not found a suggested or required frequency in the MSA book.
I asked our registrar, and he said he couldn't find it either.
However, he offered some good advice. He suggested that MSAs "be looked at" with each new PPAP. We liked it, so that's how we revised our procedure. Basically we look at it and decide if we need to do a new one each PPAP. We may never do the plug gages again, but we are now doing a new round of MSAs on some of the more complex gages since the last ones are 3 plus years old.
Interestingly, we both had a strong gut feeling that there is a requirement buried in the various books somewhere, we couldn't find it, but perhaps someone else here will be able to find it.
dbzman said:What does the AIAG manual say about the frequency of MSA. Does it require annual analysis or is this determined by customer requirements/contract? Thanks!
dbzman
I have looked long and hard, and have not found a suggested or required frequency in the MSA book.
I asked our registrar, and he said he couldn't find it either.
However, he offered some good advice. He suggested that MSAs "be looked at" with each new PPAP. We liked it, so that's how we revised our procedure. Basically we look at it and decide if we need to do a new one each PPAP. We may never do the plug gages again, but we are now doing a new round of MSAs on some of the more complex gages since the last ones are 3 plus years old.
Interestingly, we both had a strong gut feeling that there is a requirement buried in the various books somewhere, we couldn't find it, but perhaps someone else here will be able to find it.
The only way that the timetable could be that there is a need to study each system referenced in the control plan. It could be claimed that each new CP requires a new study.
I see the MSA studies as an extension of the training system for those involved in the control field, this way you kill two birds with one stone.
I see the MSA studies as an extension of the training system for those involved in the control field, this way you kill two birds with one stone.
D
dbzman
Dazed and Confused
I want to thank everyone for their input with this problem. I can see that it is not an easy one to answer. What I have done is change our procedure to state that we will perform MSA studies if the customer requires it, if there is an issue with the stability of the gages, or if we deem it necessary.
I have run up on this with our hardness testers before under QS. We use to do Gage R&R and have stopped using this. I now gather the data the same as with the gage R&R but use graphs such as the histogram and the scatter plot and box plot to show the status of the gage system.
We will have our phase 1 audit to TS this December and hopefully this will suffice.
Thanks!
I want to thank everyone for their input with this problem. I can see that it is not an easy one to answer. What I have done is change our procedure to state that we will perform MSA studies if the customer requires it, if there is an issue with the stability of the gages, or if we deem it necessary.
I have run up on this with our hardness testers before under QS. We use to do Gage R&R and have stopped using this. I now gather the data the same as with the gage R&R but use graphs such as the histogram and the scatter plot and box plot to show the status of the gage system.
We will have our phase 1 audit to TS this December and hopefully this will suffice.
Thanks!
C
chalapathi
It is a good idea to repeat the R&R study, when some things in the Measurement system changes. However, with-out any known change also we need to have some frequency of repeating R&R study. Many people in practice do it once.
I suggest it should be repeated with the same frequency of the Calibration. However, instead of following Average & Range Mehtod or ANOVA, it is a good idea to use the Range Method (short) page 97-98.
The basic idea is, the short method will quickly, with less affort will tell what is the R&R. May be in about 80% cases it is OK and we need not waste lot of time doing the long method. However, where ever the R&R value is not acceptable, repeat the study with long method to know the exact problem.
These are my personnel view not given in the manual. The short method given in the manual is not used in practice and the manual is also not explained the use of the same.
I suggest it should be repeated with the same frequency of the Calibration. However, instead of following Average & Range Mehtod or ANOVA, it is a good idea to use the Range Method (short) page 97-98.
The basic idea is, the short method will quickly, with less affort will tell what is the R&R. May be in about 80% cases it is OK and we need not waste lot of time doing the long method. However, where ever the R&R value is not acceptable, repeat the study with long method to know the exact problem.
These are my personnel view not given in the manual. The short method given in the manual is not used in practice and the manual is also not explained the use of the same.
Re: What the AIAG manual says about the frequency of MSA - Measurement system analysi
Reviving an old thread... hope you don't mind.
After attending a PPAP Overiew class at AIAG recently, the issue of R&R frequency was brought up. Most of the class was doing their studies on an annual basis as cited by MSA 4th edition. I've skimmed through the manual and could not find this "requirement." Nor, could I find a reference in the big 3 Customer Specfic Requirements. Did I miss something? Are my metrologists now required to perform Gage R&R studies annually?
Thanks in advance for your input!
Reviving an old thread... hope you don't mind.
After attending a PPAP Overiew class at AIAG recently, the issue of R&R frequency was brought up. Most of the class was doing their studies on an annual basis as cited by MSA 4th edition. I've skimmed through the manual and could not find this "requirement." Nor, could I find a reference in the big 3 Customer Specfic Requirements. Did I miss something? Are my metrologists now required to perform Gage R&R studies annually?
Thanks in advance for your input!
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