Auditors - Some are Good and Some are Bad

[Willem]

We are a ISO9001:2001 listed Company in South Africa. We've been ISO listed for the last 11 years. During this period we had some very good auditrs and some very bad auditors. One of the worst auditors that we had was from a customer that expected from us to change our system to what he wants it to be. When i said to him that our system for traceabilty is in place he got angry at me. I spoke to my MD afterards and he agreed with me. Two months later the same auditor came around because of a problem he had on some of the parts that was supplied. On the short side i was called into a disciplinary becuase of him. I got out wiht a verbal warning.
Our current 2nd party auditing company's auditors are brilliant. They come in and audit our system to the best of their ability and will make recomendations where necessary.
What experience did you had with auditors.

 

[RoxaneB]

Re: Auditors good or bad

As with anything in life, Willem, conditions such as "good" and "bad" are highly subjective to an individual's perception. From your Customer's viewpoint, he was doing a good audit...he was auditing your organization's processes to the requirements of his organization. Whether or not you agree with their requirements is what can make you believe it to a "good" or "bad" audit (and auditor).

Disciplinary action may be have occurred not just because you disagreed with the Customer...but how you disagreed with him. Let's face it, being politically correct isn't always a strength of people in our field.

 

[Willem]

Re: Auditors good or bad

As with anything in life, Willem, conditions such as "good" and "bad" are highly subjective to an individual's perception. From your Customer's viewpoint, he was doing a good audit...he was auditing your organization's processes to the requirements of his organization. Whether or not you agree with their requirements is what can make you believe it to a "good" or "bad" audit (and auditor).

Disciplinary action may be have occurred not just because you disagreed with the Customer...but how you disagreed with him. Let's face it, being politically correct isn't always a strength of people in our field.

I agree on this but the problem with this specific auditor is tha he was quite new in this line of business. I spoke to the auditor from the same mine group that visited us previuosly and he agreed that what this auditor expected from us was unreasonable. I'm very open minded and I learn evereday from other people specifially from auditors.

 

[RoxaneB]

Re: Auditors good or bad

I agree on this but the problem with this specific auditor is tha he was quite new in this line of business. I spoke to the auditor from the same mine group that visited us previuosly and he agreed that what this auditor expected from us was unreasonable. I'm very open minded and I learn evereday from other people specifially from auditors.

Willem, a large number of us on the Cove have also experienced 'unreasonable' auditors. In some cases, we may also have been considered 'unreasonable' when we were in the auditor function. Depsite the existence of standardized requirements, we can not calibrate humans. There will always be a subjective angle to auditors.

In my own organization, there is one process that is audited to the same requirements by different registrars (for ISO 9001). One auditor says all is great with that process. And the other does not. What does that mean? After all, they are auditing to the same requirements. Based upon their own previous experiences, the knowledge of the process and familiarity with the system, the output of the audit will vary.

I know that this will be easier for me to say than for you to do, but consider this a lesson in life and move forward. Deal with all of this and be professional and don't dwell on it.

Requirements are consistent. How organizations elect to meet those requirements and how auditors audit to those requirements are not consistent.

 

[Jen Kirley]

Re: Auditors good or bad

I agree with Roxane.

A registrar should not be trsyng to shape your organization. They should be able and willing to explain the basis of their nonconformances in a direct way to the standard and its linked requirements (definitions, annexes, etc.). You should be able to work with the company if the auditor's requirements seem unclear or unreasonable.

If none of this works, you should be able to record your concerns with their governing bodies and select a different registrar.

 

[RoxaneB]

Re: Auditors good or bad

If none of this works, you should be able to record your concerns with their governing bodies and select a different registrar.

Jennifer, I think Willem's awkward position is with the customer auditor. And understandably so. How does one inform a customer that they're wrong? Or rather, their expectations leave room for improvement (much more polically correct)? There is no governing body to meet with in this regard is there?

I would think that a face-to-face meeting between suitable reps from both sides would help facilitate an understanding of the Customer's requirements and how the Organization is meeting them.

 

[RickT]

Re: Auditors good or bad

We are a ISO9001:2001 listed Company in South Africa. We've been ISO listed for the last 11 years. During this period we had some very good auditrs and some very bad auditors. One of the worst auditors that we had was from a customer that expected from us to change our system to what he wants it to be. When i said to him that our system for traceabilty is in place he got angry at me. I spoke to my MD afterards and he agreed with me. Two months later the same auditor came around because of a problem he had on some of the parts that was supplied. On the short side i was called into a disciplinary becuase of him. I got out wiht a verbal warning.
Our current 2nd party auditing company's auditors are brilliant. They come in and audit our system to the best of their ability and will make recomendations where necessary.
What experience did you had with auditors.

I assume the disciplinary action was related to your "approach" to the auditor and had nothig to do with the part problem. If responsibility for the part problem has been assigned to you, then there is another much bigger issue.

 

[Willem]

Re: Auditors good or bad

I know that this will be easier for me to say than for you to do, but consider this a lesson in life and move forward. Deal with all of this and be professional and don't dwell on it.

Requirements are consistent. How organizations elect to meet those requirements and how auditors audit to those requirements are not consistent.

Roxane
I can promise you that I did move on and I'm even working with that auditor again. I would like to hear from some of the other people about their experiences they had with auditors good or bad. My opinion is that in general auditors are doing a good job.

 

[Willem]

Re: Auditors good or bad

I assume the disciplinary action was related to your "approach" to the auditor and had nothig to do with the part problem. If responsibility for the part problem has been assigned to you, then there is another much bigger issue.

It as bcause of the part. It was a hydraulic cylinder that went out as a single acting cylinder instead of double acting cylinder. They said that the correct procedures was not followed. Unfortunately as the QM Manager you can't always be at everypoint. Certain checks was put in place that was not followed. In the meeting i've gave him all the evidence that it was not a quality mistake but it was a mistake from our production guys. More checks has been put in place. This problem hppened over a weekend and some short cuts was followed.

 

[Wes Bucey]

Re: Auditors good or bad

FWIW:
I have a hunch the auditor in question was "auditing" the supplier processes to his and his company's private agenda, NOT to any Standard (neither ISO nor any other international or national Standard.)

The point here is that the customer and supplier probably did not have a real "meeting of minds" over the requirements during Contract Review when accepting the contract and agreeing to a customer audit.

Think how much more horrendous such a "disconnect" would be if the supplier were making a custom product and did not adequately understand the specifications for acceptability of the product, only to have it rejected at customer's inspection.

It has been my experience the vast majority of "personality clashes" during audits would have been avoided if both sides really understood what was expected BEFORE the day of the audit.