Corrective Action vs. Preventive (Predictive) Action (CAPA) - A Definitive Discussion

[samsung]

Re: Corrective Action vs. Preventive (Predictive) Action (CAPA) - A Definitive Discus

Corrective action: after occurance of the failure.

Preventive action: before occurance of potential failure.

Better say "before the occurrence of potential failure" which does recognize an action taken to avoid a potential failure.

 

[sudhir.mahajan]

Re: Corrective Action vs. Preventive (Predictive) Action (CAPA) - A Definitive Discus

Do agree...

 

[Ivo Schaefer]

Re: Corrective Action vs. Preventive (Predictive) Action (CAPA) - A Definitive Discus

I usually explain it like this:

Corrective action focusses on the sympoms of the non conformance. It's like hiding the problem by making it invisible (hiding it behind a curtain). Usually these actions add costs to the non-conforming process.

Preventive actions focus on the root cause(s) of the problem preventing it from happening again in the same process or prevent it from occurring in a similar process elsewhere. These actions usually need an investment but, due to improved process efficiency, eventually lower the running cost of the previously defect process.

When I teach about Quality I like to use this example from when I worked at Johnson Controls where we built the complete dash assy for a car.

There was a problem with flash on an edge of an injection moulded plastic part. We did a RCA and found out that the mold halfs weren't perfectly flat. During the analysis we hired workers who did nothing but manually deburring the plastic part. In the mean time we decided to have the mold halfs reworked so that there was no issue with flesh anymore.

Corrective action: Manually deburring plastic parts (Customer didn't see the problem anymore, but we had to hire extra people for deburring = extra costs)

Preventive action: Reworking the molds halfs. (relative large amount of money & time)

 

[Brunetta]

Re: Corrective Action vs. Preventive (Predictive) Action (CAPA) - A Definitive Discus

I usually explain it like this:

Corrective action focusses on the sympoms of the non conformance. It's like hiding the problem by making it invisible (hiding it behind a curtain). Usually these actions add costs to the non-conforming process.

Preventive actions focus on the root cause(s) of the problem preventing it from happening again in the same process or prevent it from occurring in a similar process elsewhere. These actions usually need an investment but, due to improved process efficiency, eventually lower the running cost of the previously defect process.

When I teach about Quality I like to use this example from when I worked at Johnson Controls where we built the complete dash assy for a car.

There was a problem with flash on an edge of an injection moulded plastic part. We did a RCA and found out that the mold halfs weren't perfectly flat. During the analysis we hired workers who did nothing but manually deburring the plastic part. In the mean time we decided to have the mold halfs reworked so that there was no issue with flesh anymore.

Corrective action: Manually deburring plastic parts (Customer didn't see the problem anymore, but we had to hire extra people for deburring = extra costs)

Preventive action: Reworking the molds halfs. (relative large amount of money & time)

Completely disagree with this explanation.

What you describe to me sounds like you took action to control the nonconformity "Manually deburring the plastic parts" (ISO 9001:2008 8.3 a. taking action to eliminate the detected nonconformity) Just because you came up with this "band-aide" solution during the analysis doesn't automatically assign it to ISO 9001:2008 8.5.2 Corrective Action.

When I explain the concepts, I use very plain terms...we satisfy ISO 9001 8.3 when we apply a quick fix or band-aide solution to the problem. This can be either fix it and forget it (although it really is being monitored through the system records to see if it a trend develops that warrants corrective action at that time) or it can happen as you describe, as a fix to buy you time while you figure out a permanent solution to the problem (ISO 9001 8.5.2)

Corrective Action really occurs once you figure out WHY the problem keeps happening and apply a fix that stops it from happening over and over again. (of course you also monitor the fix to make sure it did indeed work to completely answer the requirements of ISO 9001 8.5.2)

ISO 9001 8.5.3 Preventive actions...Our preventive action plans primarily come from our audit program OFIs, Management Review improvement actions, and the good ideas our employees have come up with to make their work faster, better, easier, etc. The benefit that we get from this is that we have a formal method of tracking the progress of these improvement projects.

We also linked our preventive action process to our document control process to ensure these good ideas once deemed effective are formalized in our QMS documentation.

 

[howste]

Re: Corrective Action vs. Preventive (Predictive) Action (CAPA) - A Definitive Discus

Brunetta's right.

Corrective action focusses on the sympoms of the non conformance. It's like hiding the problem by making it invisible (hiding it behind a curtain). Usually these actions add costs to the non-conforming process.

This isn't a corrective action, it's a correction: action to eliminate a detected nonconformity (from ISO 9000:2005)

Preventive actions focus on the root cause(s) of the problem preventing it from happening again in the same process or prevent it from occurring in a similar process elsewhere.

This isn't a preventive action, it's a corrective action: action to eliminate the cause of a detected nonconformity (from ISO 9000:2005)

Corrective action: Manually deburring plastic parts (Customer didn't see the problem anymore, but we had to hire extra people for deburring = extra costs)

Correction.

Preventive action: Reworking the molds halfs. (relative large amount of money & time)

Corrective action.

 

[Ron Tollett]

Re: Corrective Action vs. Preventive (Predictive) Action (CAPA) - A Definitive Discus

As we know, a nonconformance constitutes a corrective and can lead to a preventive action in other areas or the issue at hand. Is there a need for a nonconformance to initiate a corrective action? I know a nonconformance is not required to initiate a preventive action.

 

[samsung]

Re: Corrective Action vs. Preventive (Predictive) Action (CAPA) - A Definitive Discus

Is there a need for a nonconformance to initiate a corrective action?

Yes, there's an obvious need.

I know a nonconformance is not required to initiate a preventive action.

But a description of a potential nonconformance (better say a perceived problem) is required to initiate a preventive action else how will you determine an action.

 

[howste]

Re: Corrective Action vs. Preventive (Predictive) Action (CAPA) - A Definitive Discus

Is there a need for a nonconformance to initiate a corrective action? I know a nonconformance is not required to initiate a preventive action.

The definition of corrective action gives us a clue:

corrective action
action to eliminate the cause of a detected nonconformity or other undesirable situation

To do a corrective action then, you need to identify either a nonconformity or an undesirable situation.

 

[Ron Tollett]

Re: Corrective Action vs. Preventive (Predictive) Action (CAPA) - A Definitive Discus

I agree to the "Undesirable situation" Therefore, a nonconformance would not always be the culprit for a nonconformance. Where did you find the "undesirable situation" clause? I have never seen this in ISO.

 

[howste]

Re: Corrective Action vs. Preventive (Predictive) Action (CAPA) - A Definitive Discus

It's in ISO 9000 - the fundamentals and vocabulary document listed as a normative reference in ISO 9001. It's where all of the official definitions for ISO 9001 are contained.