Internal Auditor - What is required to have someone qualified as an internal auditor?

[Stijloor]

Re: Internal Auditor - What is required to have someone qualified as an internal audi

Randy is absoooolutely correct in that we 3rd party auditors have accepted a sub-standard test of competency that has perpetuated a dismal result from internal audit processes.

Although ISO 19011:2002 and QE 19011s:2004 (U.S. revision only) outlines the attributes in section 7.2 for auditors, this doesn't guarantee "competency".

An internal auditor training process should include an apprenticeship program. A potential auditor once trained in the standard and ISO 19011 must work with a competent auditor until they have proven their skills and competency.

Best regards,
MajorHal

Hello MajorHal,

Your suggestion is an excellent one!

But didn't we have (3rd Party) auditor levels such as Provisional Auditor, Auditor, and Lead Auditor at some point in the past? I am not quite up to speed with the current (3rd Party) certification requirements.

However, for internal audits, I really like your suggestion to serve an "Auditor Apprenticeship" first. I know how beneficial an apprenticeship can be..I used to be an apprentice (machinist) myself when I was growing up in the Netherlands.

Best!

Stijloor.

 

[Randy]

Re: Internal Auditor - What is required to have someone qualified as an internal audi

Look and study Table 3 in ISO 19011:2002 as an example of how the organizaction can obtain and evaluate auditor competence.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Re: Internal Auditor - What is required to have someone qualified as an internal audi

Randy is absoooolutely correct in that we 3rd party auditors have accepted a sub-standard test of competency that has perpetuated a dismal result from internal audit processes.

Although ISO 19011:2002 and QE 19011s:2004 (U.S. revision only) outlines the attributes in section 7.2 for auditors, this doesn't guarantee "competency".

An internal auditor training process should include an apprenticeship program. A potential auditor once trained in the standard and ISO 19011 must work with a competent auditor until they have proven their skills and competency.

Best regards,
MajorHal

The problem is that competence is not easily definable and demonstrable. RABQSA had to seriously re-think their strategy with the competency-based auditor certification program they launched a few years ago. I have written several times about the chronic incompetence of internal auditors for a large percentage of organizations which have their management system certified. What dove tails in the discussion of the pros and cons of outsourcing internal system audits.

 

[majorhal - 2009]

Re: Internal Auditor - What is required to have someone qualified as an internal audi

The problem is that competence is not easily definable and demonstrable. RABQSA had to seriously re-think their strategy with the competency-based auditor certification program they launched a few years ago. I have written several times about the chronic incompetence of internal auditors for a large percentage of organizations which have their management system certified. What dove tails in the discussion of the pros and cons of outsourcing internal system audits.

Hi Sidney,
My experience is similar. A majority of internal auditors are incompetent. Did you mean for your last sentence to be a question?
MajorHal

 

[Colin]

Re: Internal Auditor - What is required to have someone qualified as an internal audi

Whilst agreeing with most of what has been stated in this thread, we have not really answered the OP's question regarding training.

IMO, there is no 'ideal standard' training course for internal auditors. For some, the 2 day course (e.g. IRCA registered) does a decent job of providing a grounding in the basic skills, as long as it includes as much practical work as possible. For others, 2 days barely scratches the surface and is nowhere near enough training.

The real skills can only be obtained by doing 'real' audits under some kind of supervision which gives feedback on the things they do well and those they don't. The other problem I see is that many people seem to do just 1 or 2 audits per year and they get rusty with some of the skills so there may be a need for additional support too.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Re: Internal Auditor - What is required to have someone qualified as an internal audi

Did you mean for your last sentence to be a question?

Not really. We have had numerous discussions here about pros and cons of outsourcing internal audits. In some circumstances, it might be beneficial for organizations to hire competent people to perform the internal audits, rather than trying to develop employees to do so.

 

[TJG954 - 2009]

Re: Internal Auditor - What is required to have someone qualified as an internal audi

I guess in the utopian world, having an abundance of trained and experienced internal auditors is the norm. For me, it's a bit different. My company has never been audited. They have never conducted an internal audit. To my knowledge, I am the only trained and certified auditor that works here.... and I've been on the job for 2 whole months (but experienced elsewhere).


We will be holding our first-ever internal audit next week. My team of auditors is a rag-tag bunch of departmental managers who would rather have teeth pulled than get involved with auditing. Their training? I have held 4 one-hour meetings/training sessions and sent them several auditing guides and tip sheets. I created their checklists at random. Thanks to some of the folks on the Elsmar site and others (if Google charged, I'd need a mortgage) I have found some very good reference materials to pass on.


So, while not classically trained, my auditors can walk, breathe, and sign their names. If they show up for the audit, I'm ahead of the ballgame. This may not be the best process, but it is far better than no process at all.
:

PS
How many of these virtues must an auditor have? Do they grade on a scale?

Auditors should possess personal attributes to enable them to act in accordance with the principles of auditing described in clause 4.
An auditor should be: (should, but not really necessary?)
a) ethical, i.e. fair, truthful, sincere, honest and discreet; (one of them paid me back a buck I loaned)
b) open-minded, i.e. willing to consider alternative ideas or points of view; (some of them are Republicans)
c) diplomatic, i.e. tactful in dealing with people; (we can't have guns at work)
d) observant, i.e. actively aware of physical surroundings and activities; (one guy got lost for 2 days)
e) perceptive, i.e. instinctively aware of and able to understand situations; (huh?)
f) versatile, i.e. adjusts readily to different situations; (all of them drive cars from the 80's)
g) tenacious, i.e. persistent, focused on achieving objectives; (they always show up on payday)
h) decisive, i.e. reaches timely conclusions based on logical reasoning and analysis; and (maybe tomorrow)
i) self-reliant, i.e. acts and functions independently while interacting effectively with others. (mommy, help me)

 

[Felix Moore]

Re: Internal Auditor - What is required to have someone qualified as an internal audi

I agree that most companies don't appreciate the true value of internal auditors, and therefore assign a low a priority to company 'resources' for proper selection and training.

I submit that internal auditors are the most underrated asset in the ISO toolbox -- IMHO, they are probably the most valuable "tool" available to management! They give a "snapshot" in time of the current state of the organization / operation, with OBJECTIVE evidence -- armed with which, mgmt. can make informed decisions about the best path for the company to take.

The objective evidence obtained from a good internal audit can contribute the most dependable "C(heck)" in the PDCA cycle.

Regarding training of auditors, the personal attributes listed in clause 4 of 19011 seem almost too idealistic (we should all be so fortunate to work with such lofty folks). But worse, they are almost impossible to 'measure', much less teach.

And how would one "teach" those largely subjective attributes? So the only recourse is in selection; and I challenge anyone to convince top mgmt that such valuable folks -- if they exist in the company -- should be diverted to auditing.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Re: Internal Auditor - What is required to have someone qualified as an internal audi

And how would one "teach" those largely subjective attributes? So the only recourse is in selection; and I challenge anyone to convince top mgmt that such valuable folks -- if they exist in the company -- should be diverted to auditing.

Internal auditor selection is CRITICAL. In this post, I attached a presentation that I gave to the Orange County Chapter of ASQ a year ago on THE TOP 10 REASONS WHY INTERNAL QUALITY SYSTEM AUDITS ARE INEFFECTIVE AND HOW TO AVOID THEM. Slide 3 of the presentation covers the importance of auditor selection.

 

[Achemd]

Re: Internal Auditor - What is required to have someone qualified as an internal audi

Thank you all, I am however still unsure if I have to have people officially trained by for example BSI or ASQ or if we can determine our own standards, for example I conducted internal audits in the pharmaceutical industry, can I do ISO 13485internal audits or not?