Japanese companies don?t adopt SIX SIGMA / ISO - Still they are leading in Quality

[Jen Kirley]

Re: Japanese companies don’t adopt SIX SIGMA / ISO - Still they are leading in Qualit

But it is all hype, if you actually wanted to source a product from a certain supplier, and it was critical to your business you may well look for specific process capability indices on some feature or other of the part, rather than simply blindly placing orders with a company claiming to be a 'Six Sigma' company.

Very true in my mind.

The major problem with a company claiming itself "A Six Sigma Company" is that there's no single, universally understood definition. Does it mean the company uses 6S in the Great Jack Welch Way (the executives might conjure this image) or does it mean a promise of less than XXXppm defects--appealing to folks like us? It's confusing, and the skeptic in me imagines that some companies would prefer the so-called eye of the beholder to view the claim as it will.

That's a similar misunderstanding of ISO registration: very often it insinuates a guarantee of quality, where there is no such guarantee at all.

So the savvy consumer or buyer is not off the hook; he/she should develop a good enough understanding of the company buying from and avoid getting caught up in hocus-pocus labels. The Japanese overall have managed it; even though there are troublesome Toyota recalls lately, the image of Japanese quality still looks secure. The only label then need is the Toyota/Subaru/Sony/etc. logo.

 

[wmarhel]

Re: Japanese companies don’t adopted SIX SIGMA / ISO - still they are leading in Qual

I don’t understand how companies (GE / Motorola - in which sector!) they are classifying that they are having SS and saved a lot millions / billions....reality in market lot of complaints on their product.

Sridhar

I believe a lot of the savings comes down to two reasons:

1) The company is demanding results from the projects and failing to deliver can mean the company will be helping you to make a career change (you will be laid off).

2) They are miscalculating or over-emphasing the savings from what would amount to lost opportunity costs.

From a savings standpoint, I've numerous instances both in Lean and Six Sigma where a savings was "claimed" but a standard in the system (material or labor usage for example) was never changed. If the standard isn't modified to reflect the improvement, then no savings should be claimed.

Wayne

 

[Pazuzu - 2009]

Re: Japanese companies don’t adopt SIX SIGMA / ISO - Still they are leading in Qualit

I cannot begin to discuss 6S...I know of it, it's purpose, it's intended outcome, but that's about it.

However, in the light that Japanese companies do not use it (and other tools) may be a bit misleading. Keep in mind that the Japanese have pioneered the Lean concept which in my opinion is the most logical approach for business improvement. As other companies, countries, and continents try to focus on how they do it, they have been able to scientifically break it down, but still cannot run parallel with them. I feel the biggest contributor to this is culture, not only that which is in the business, but also the Japanese culture as a whole. They are far more disciplined, as a whole, than most other countries and this is the core principle as to why they are so effective in what they do.

They dont formally practice 6S because they have a culture in which it's not needed.

 

[Steve Prevette]

Re: Japanese companies don’t adopt SIX SIGMA / ISO - Still they are leading in Qualit

I'll weigh in on the side of being against ISO (do a google search for John Seddon and you'll see a lot of his writings about ISO) and six sigma. As you pointed out, the Japanese do not do ISO or six sigma. I recently met a safety professional from Honda of America (Marysville OH) and can attest to this. They are very data oriented, systems oriented, and are still working to the principles Dr. Deming laid out in Japan. From what was described, it sounded like Honda would be a good candidate for the OSHA Voluntary Protection Program recognition. My contact stated that the Honda management wasn't that much into such programs for programs sake. I suspect they could pass an ISO review hands-down also, but they just don't see the point in doing so.

 

[Kales Veggie]

Re: Japanese companies don’t adopt SIX SIGMA / ISO - Still they are leading in Qualit

I believe we can sum up the reason why some companies do not need Six Sigma. Remember Deming's management principles.

1) Constancy of Purpose.... (13 more not quoted here)

Then you do not need the flavour of the week to drive customer satisfaction, continuous improvement and so on. Flavours include TPM, Quality Circles, Baldridge, TQM, Zero Defects, Six Sigma, feel free to add more.

 

[Paul Simpson]

Re: Japanese companies don’t adopt SIX SIGMA / ISO - Still they are leading in Qualit

I'll weigh in on the side of being against ISO (do a google search for John Seddon and you'll see a lot of his writings about ISO) and six sigma.

You are free to your own opinions of course, Steve and they are quite well known here on the Cove (as are mine for being pro ISO).

To use John Seddon as a "guru" on ISO is to put one point of view (that happens to agree with your own). While his recent conversion to the cause of Lean is to be applauded some of us remember the days when his USP was: "I'm against ISO 9001 .... er, that's it."

With Six Sigma - I tend to be on the sceptical side but recognize that a "programme" can sometimes generate the needed commitment and investment in statistical methods that can generate the savings needed.

As you pointed out, the Japanese do not do ISO or six sigma.

Where did you get this? I can only speak for the UK but Honda, Toyota use ISO 9001 (or its TS variant) and when I was last sent some information from their certification body they were still registered to it.

On Six Sigma again the Japanese use all of the tools and techniques very well - they just don't use the badge.

I recently met a safety professional from Honda of America (Marysville OH) and can attest to this. They are very data oriented, systems oriented, and are still working to the principles Dr. Deming laid out in Japan. From what was described, it sounded like Honda would be a good candidate for the OSHA Voluntary Protection Program recognition. My contact stated that the Honda management wasn't that much into such programs for programs sake. I suspect they could pass an ISO review hands-down also, but they just don't see the point in doing so.

I can't comment on your OSHA point but it wouldn't surprise me if they were excellent at safety. My experience of working for a supplier was that they were firm but fair and did everything properly - not the same experience as to some other OEMS.

On that general point. In an ideal world we wouldn't need (in order):

1. 3rd party certification
2. Customer audits
3. Inspection
4. Quality people

Unfortunately not all companies can get their heads around "doing the right thing" and end up relying on (in order) 3, 4, 2, 1.

 

[caversluis]

Re: Japanese companies don’t adopt SIX SIGMA / ISO - Still they are leading in Qualit

Dear Sirdhar,

Let me introduce myself first. I am quality manager at a Danish company which has about 15.000 employees world wide. I am also responsible for deployment of six-sigma in our company. I am a certified six sigma black-belt.

What you state is one of the biggest misunderstandings concerning six sigma. Six sigma is NOT about 3,4ppm or Cp=2. It is in fact a systematic approach to handling quality issues (as such it does fit to ISO9001 clause 8.5.2).

In our six sigma projects, we usually make improvements of factor 2. That means we cut scrap by half, cut rejects by half, etc.

My point is that six sigma is a set of tools which together are use a systematic way to make major improvements. Improvements which can not be acchieved without a systematic approach. Most succesfull companies do have a similar approach even though they might call it something other than six sigma. Recently i visited Nissan which have a 10 step approach which resembles our 12 step six sigma approach.

When companies have a six sigma program running, they might call themsleves a six sigma company. From my point of view this means that they succesfully implement major improvements. This does not necessarily means that all there process are at 3,4ppm.

Cornelis

 

[sridharafep]

Re: Japanese companies don’t adopt SIX SIGMA / ISO - Still they are leading in Qualit

Thanks for your comments and point of clarification.

When we say successfully implement major improvements, the end results should show better or not? - i have noticed in many post that this is really other way. Let us practically put all top 10 companies having SS and just get feedback from all of us about their end product Quality dimensions / satisfaction.

I request every one to post the SS company list to have voting. (Mixed type)

If they have SS and definitely it should lead to Quality improvement and that ultimately satisfaction.

Sridhar

 

[caversluis]

Re: Japanese companies don’t adopt SIX SIGMA / ISO - Still they are leading in Qualit

Dear Sridhar,

I just do not understand what you want to prove. For me it is not that relevant what other companies acchive with six sigma. But it is important that it will work for me.

You will find a lot of examples of bad six sigma deployment where the companies do not acchieve the result they would like to have. But you will also find a number of very good examples where they create huge benefit. The cases from GE and Motorale are well documented. Other companies that produce impreesive results are Volvo, Rolls Royce, Philips. They can prove that every single project contributed to better customer satisfaction.

Does this mean that never have an unsatisfied customer? Probably not, but they have an effective way of improving their customer related performance.

From my point of view, you should ask yourself: "can six sigma give me benefits?" If yes, look for companies that implemented it succesfully and see what you can learn from them.

 

[Jim Wynne]

Re: Japanese companies don’t adopt SIX SIGMA / ISO - Still they are leading in Qualit

But you will also find a number of very good examples where they create huge benefit. The cases from GE and Motorale are well documented. Other companies that produce impreesive results are Volvo, Rolls Royce, Philips. They can prove that every single project contributed to better customer satisfaction.

{Emphasis added}

This is typical of the hyperbole that characterizes the promotion of SS. Unfortunately, it's all tied up in logical fallacies and has no basis in empirical observation. To wit:

1. Assuming that the "huge benefit" is real, could it have been achieved by conscientious application of traditional methods, without the expense of SS training and indoctrination? What role does leadership play in improvement processes?
2. Where are the GE and Motorola "huge benefits" documented in objective form, wherein the actual financials are revealed and examined?
3. How is it possible for Rolls Royce et al to "...prove that every single project contributed to better customer satisfaction"? How is customer satisfaction enumerated, and where is the proof? Are they able to show a direct causal relationship between SS and customer happiness? I'd like to examine the "proof."