Lost Cause for Understanding and Implementing ISO 9001

[Sorin]

Re: Lost Cause for Understanding and Implementing ISO9001

Training - yes that is a very good idea, and id love to get a grip on everything through a course however My company doesnt not want to spend any money apart from the fees to get certified! Hense my dilemma

I have some food for thought now with all your feedback, I hope there is not too much required as it is a IT company and relatively small..

This is not a self-study course. In order to implement a QMS based on ISO standard(s), the company really needs to invest in some training.

Try and make your boss understand this principle. Ask him if he would hire anyone for a qualified position without a proper training/school.

 

[SteelMaiden]

Re: Lost Cause for Understanding and Implementing ISO9001

Sorin, how very true. Trying to learn how to be the quality puke whilst learning how to implement a quality system is really more than anyone should have to do without any training at all.

 

[Stijloor]

Re: Lost Cause for Understanding and Implementing ISO9001

<snip>Training - yes that is a very good idea, and id love to get a grip on everything through a course however My company doesnt not want to spend any money apart from the fees to get certified!

Show your boss the competency requirement in the Standard.
That could get his/her attention....(look in section 6 )

Stijloor.

 

[Wes Bucey]

Re: Lost Cause for Understanding and Implementing ISO9001

Sorin, how very true. Trying to learn how to be the quality puke whilst learning how to implement a quality system is really more than anyone should have to do without any training at all.

Let us say, rather, that it is not easy, but it is not impossible to self-educate on creating and/or adapting a quality management system to meet the relatively loose requirements of the basic ISO 9001 Standard. I've seen a number of instances where such initiatives have succeeded without outside training or consultants.

However, without resources and authority from the top dog to actually implement changes and modifications, even the brightest and the best are doomed to failure.

As a professional consultant, I am nearly moved to tears by seeing some operations completely hobbled by a biased (even hostile) top manager who lays the task in the hands of a complete neophyte and then ensures failure by withholding resources and authority from that neophyte.

I can deal with ignorance - it's just a matter of education. Sometimes (rarely), I can deal with bias and prejudice if I am granted access to the top dog. When the top dog refuses ANY involvement in the process, the project is doomed.

Oddly, I can't recall when I ever came across a top dog I would term "stupid," but I have seen a lot of otherwise intelligent people cling to beliefs and biases which put them at a competitive disadvantage. They may be smart, but they need a psychiatrist!

 

[Jen Kirley]

Re: Lost Cause for Understanding and Implementing ISO9001

Ask him if he would hire anyone for a qualified position without a proper training/school.

Unfortunately it seems he just did.

 

[John Broomfield]

Re: Lost Cause for Understanding and Implementing ISO9001

Hi there,
I dont know where to begin. I have been appointed quality manager of my small company however I have no experience in this area and havent an idea where to begin. Whats worse is that Im not long working for this company and and am not aware of all there proceedures. Ive spent alot of time on this forum researching but every thread I read are from people who have at the very least a clue about ISO etc.
I have an outline so far as how I am going to pursue it - from research gathered, but if there is anyone out there who can explain scope, exclusions, control documents etc I would really Appreciate it!! Templates of control documents would save me alot of time too as there are none in place!
Thanks in advance

Armmy,

What a wonderful opportunity for you to make a contribution to your company's success.

Right now you seem to be in the weeds seeking the answer to a big question "Lost Cause for Understanding and Implementing ISO9001":

Two suggested reasons for understanding and "implementing" ISO 9001:

A. Your company is making sure its management system at least conforms to ISO 9001 so it does a better job of converting customer needs into cash in the bank. In other words this system will enable everyone to add value faster and prevent loss sooner while delivering assurance of quality.

B. Your company seeks certification of its management system by an independentant accredited registrar that will enhance the reputation of your company to a standard that is respected or at least required by your customers.

If A and B are true then please revisit clause 4.1 and make sure the core process is the central focus of your system. This is the process that converts the needs of your customers into cash in the bank. Every other process in your system needs to make the core process better and better.

Note how the system that runs your organization is the one that should conform to ISO 9001. This approach is much better than "implementing ISO 9001".

Focus on B alone and you may only see top management support just before the registrar visits. ISO 9001 could then remain a "lost cause".

By achieving item A above you will have a management system that is respected by top management and central to the success of your company.

Never again will your management system be a "lost cause".

Best wishes,

John

 

[Claes Gefvenberg]

Re: Lost Cause for Understanding and Implementing ISO9001

Training - yes that is a very good idea, and id love to get a grip on everything through a course however My company doesnt not want to spend any money apart from the fees to get certified! Hense my dilemma

Ouch! Ok, as you can see at the bottom of my posts I am of the opinion that one should never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity (Hanlon). This is clearly a case where that little rule can be applied: There is no reason to believe that resources are being withheld due to malice. It is more likely a case of ... shall we call it ignorance (stupidity is such an unpleasent word, but that was the way the quote was written)? Ignorance can be cured, however. The message to get across to your peers is that the fees alone will not be enough. Nor will your effort alone. It takes a team effort (backed up and led by the management) to launch a management system if it is supposed to be of any particular use, and knowing what needs to be done is obviously a major factor if the investments in time and money are to pay off.

I hope there is not too much required as it is a IT company and relatively small..

As a matter of fact you could probably get away with something relatively uncomplicated: As many here already know, one of my favourite parts of the standard is this one...

The extent of the quality management system documentation can differ from one organization to another due to
a) the size of organization and type of activities,
b) the complexity of processes and their interactions, and
c) the competence of personnel.

..., which allows us to build reasonable systems adapted to our respective needs.

/Claes

 

[Wes Bucey]

Re: Lost Cause for Understanding and Implementing ISO9001

Ouch! Ok, as you can see at the bottom of my posts I am of the opinion that one should never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity (Hanlon). This is clearly a case where that little rule can be applied: There is no reason to believe that resources are being withheld due to malice. It is more likely a case of ... shall we call it ignorance (stupidity is such an unpleasent word, but that was the way the quote was written)? Ignorance can be cured, however. The message to get across to your peers is that the fees alone will not be enough. Nor will your effort alone. It takes a team effort (backed up and led by the management) to launch a management system if it is supposed to be of any particular use, and knowing what needs to be done is obviously a major factor if the investments in time and money are to pay off.
As a matter of fact you could probably get away with something relatively uncomplicated: As many here already know, one of my favourite parts of the standard is this one......, which allows us to build reasonable systems adapted to our respective needs.

/Claes

What you write is all very well and good, reasonable, even. BUT the fact remains:
Somebody has to do the following:

1. Find a way to get the top dog to sit down and share a tête à tête session to hear the whys and wherefores
2. Prepare and practice all the talking points [that we "experts" would use if WE were in the tête à tête]
3. Follow through if the top dog is convinced to "back and lead" the process

I'm very good at doing something like that, but I didn't learn how to be that "somebody" from reading a few posts in an online forum. Like most other consultants, I learned a lot through some of my failures to find the right "hook" to capture the imagination of a top manager. Today,of course, I, like countless other business consultants, have enough knowledge and experience that I can recognize when one ploy isn't working and switch seamlessly into another. Beginners and first timers are usually stuck with one script.

However, Claes, you do give one clue for a possible route to success when you introduced the word "peers" into the dialog. If the hypothetical "someone" can rally a committee of his peers to join and back him in the tête à tête with the boss, the added impetus of the "group mind" may keep the boss's attention long enough to sway him toward more involvement, leadership, and loosening of the purse strings.

It's important to know that every ISO implementation does not need high-priced consultants. With a little ingenuity, inexpensive, but effective help can be found at places like suppliers, customers, neighboring companies which have already gone through the process successfully.
(there is one little caveat - was that company's transition actually successful?)
A little more expensive route, but still not burdensome is searching out a local ASQ Section to ask for one or more members to help shepherd the company through an inexpensive, but effective transition.

Ah, well! We are all trying to make lemonade out of lemons here, but the process DOES need a little "sugar" (money) to complete the process.

 

[Jim Wynne]

Re: Lost Cause for Understanding and Implementing ISO9001

What you write is all very well and good, reasonable, even. BUT the fact remains:
Somebody has to do the following:

1. Find a way to get the top dog to sit down and share a tête à tête session to hear the whys and wherefores
2. Prepare and practice all the talking points [that we "experts" would use if WE were in the tête à tête]
3. Follow through if the top dog is convinced to "back and lead" the process

I don't think any of those things are necessary or even helpful in most cases. Ganging up on a CEO is almost never a good idea, and is likely to have unexpected consequences somewhere down the road even if the initial goal is accomplished.

In the initial effort at implementation there is often misapprehension on the part of top management. There's a failure to understand what's needed to get it done. Someone--often a quality manager--has the mandate dropped in his lap in the belief that a nominally competent person, working more or less in isolation, should be able to do what's needed to accomplish certification.

When it doesn't work, and the cooperation just isn't there, the person given the responsibility initially is often made a scapegoat and someone else is given the task. On that second (or third) time around, top management is more likely to get involved, at least to the extent necessary to get the ball rolling and keep it in motion.

In any event, if the authority needed to accomplish an efficacious certification effort must be pried or cajoled out of the hands of top management, registration might be accomplished, but not much in the way of really improving anything.

 

[Duke Okes]

Find one or more companies near you that are registered, and contact the quality manager to see if s/he would be willing to spend some time with you.

Also buy a book or two on ISO 9001. It isn't difficult, there are just a lot of pieces to pull together.