Minor non-conformance for not receiving a CofC from a heat treater

[dbelback]

We have been ISO Certified for over 20 years and AS certified for 6. We have had the same Auditor for 5 years. During our most recent recertification we were issued a Minor non-conformance for not receiving a CofC from a heat treater- for the Rockwell hardness test - indicating the readings. We have never required the heat treater to supply CofCs unless required by our customer. This additionally applies to really any CofCs including material certs. We receive many CofC when required by our customers or suppliers who send them to everyone. The Auditor was surprised he had not caught this before - apparently he only happen to audit parts we had certificates for.
He said this requirement that all material, plating heat treatment and other outside processes are required to meet the requirements of 8.4.2 Type & Extent of Control. He said this is an ISO requirement not just an AS. Does anyone have any insight on this?

 

[Randy]

ISO requirement? Like ISO 9001? I can't find a specific reference to CofC in ISO 9001 8.4.2. You are supposed to ensure that externally provided stuff doesn't adversely effect you ability to consistently deliver conforming customer stuff by doing a-d but hey you get to figure that out in conjunction with your customers and not the auditor...So if everyone has been happy with what's been happening CoC's or not then continue to march I guess.

 

[Golfman25]

I don't know about AS, but ISO has no specific requirement to receive a CofC from vendors. I suppose it's an easy way to show control of vendors, but many charge $30 for the cert. No thanks, not needed.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Does anyone have any insight on this?

Heat treatment is a process that needs to be validated (in most cases), a.k.a. special process. Heat treatment is meant to alter metallurgical properties and surface hardness measurements will only give you a limited indication of all such mechanical/metallurgical properties, but won't tell you the whole range of physical characteristics of the parts. So, the question becomes: how do YOU ensure that the outsourced heat treatment processes delivers the expected results and has been performed in accordance with the (supposedly) validated process?

A (RELIABLE) supplier CoC can be understood as evidence of successful heat treatment, but, as I said before, the heat treatment process itself needs to be validated.

 

[somashekar]

We have been ISO Certified for over 20 years and AS certified for 6. We have had the same Auditor for 5 years. During our most recent recertification we were issued a Minor non-conformance for not receiving a CofC from a heat treater- for the Rockwell hardness test - indicating the readings. We have never required the heat treater to supply CofCs unless required by our customer. This additionally applies to really any CofCs including material certs. We receive many CofC when required by our customers or suppliers who send them to everyone. The Auditor was surprised he had not caught this before - apparently he only happen to audit parts we had certificates for.
He said this requirement that all material, plating heat treatment and other outside processes are required to meet the requirements of 8.4.2 Type & Extent of Control. He said this is an ISO requirement not just an AS. Does anyone have any insight on this?

Type and extent of control is indeed clearly said in the standard.
Now that C of C must be your type of control. Have you defined it in your procedures this type and extent of control on this specific process ?
If you have not defined the C of C as a type of control, can you detail what are the types of control you have been exercising over this specific process.
As far as I know, the C of C is one of the widely used (misused too) type of control.
Certainly you can have many other types of controls exercised on outsourced process, including third party inspection.

 

[Jim Wynne]

We have been ISO Certified for over 20 years and AS certified for 6. We have had the same Auditor for 5 years. During our most recent recertification we were issued a Minor non-conformance for not receiving a CofC from a heat treater- for the Rockwell hardness test - indicating the readings. We have never required the heat treater to supply CofCs unless required by our customer. This additionally applies to really any CofCs including material certs. We receive many CofC when required by our customers or suppliers who send them to everyone. The Auditor was surprised he had not caught this before - apparently he only happen to audit parts we had certificates for.
He said this requirement that all material, plating heat treatment and other outside processes are required to meet the requirements of 8.4.2 Type & Extent of Control. He said this is an ISO requirement not just an AS. Does anyone have any insight on this?

Can you give us the entire nonconformity statement, verbatim, including references to the standard?

 

[UncleFester]

I'd also be interested to see the exact wording of the minor N/C. It may suggest that your company documentation - not the requirement in 8.4.2 alone - suggests that the level of control you have stipulated includes receipt of C of Cs.

Is your organisation an automotive supplier? There are further requirements regarding type and extent of control, but the minor N/C should have been written regarding those sub-clauses anyway so probably answered my own question.

Also be aware that CQI-9 is a special process audit for heat treatment which may be worth a look into if you're looking at determining what level of control you want to place on heat treatment sub-contractors.

 

[Eredhel]

I'm guessing the auditor is leaning to what Sidney is pointing out. But I'd also like to see the exact wording of the finding.

 

[mattador78]

As a special process here we are only accredited to iso9001;2015 so for any work we provide to our customers to an AS9100d level we are expected to show our chemical analysis on request our validation of timings and calibration of equipment on request as well as test results on the product/samples and CofCs because we are changing the properties of the material due to our processes. We have always had this information available for non aerospace customers as well on request or if audited. As Sidney said we run on what it says in 8.4.2 iso and AS that we can and will be asked to show how effective our controls are on the product.

 

[JeantheBigone]

Irrespective of ISO9001, does the material specification call out a hardness range, minimum, or maximum? If not, why would you need it? If so, why would you accept it without the CofC?