Quality Manual Organization and Structure including Numbering

[Mike S.]

I forgot -- I also test the cake during baking (toothpick test) and after cooling (taste-moistness test). Also, payment comes only after delivery. And, sometimes I order supplies after reciept of order ifI don't have any of that flavor mix in stock. Otherwise, your list is okay.

#1 is okay.

#2 is okay -- I have a spec. sheet that tells me how many cake mixes to use based on cake size

#3 -- how detailed do you want the resources to be -- every spatula, toothpick, and spoon I might use? Otherwise, a Waring blender, Maytag oven, timer, Super-Baker cake pans for the "bake cakes" step and, for "take orders" , well, I get them thru the internet (computer), phone calls (phone), and customer visits to my shop and I log them on a customer order sheet.

Enough info?

 

[Mike S.]

Jeez -- you make a guy do lots of work! Running out of time but here is a quick addition. Your suppositions above are okay. If you have any other questions just make an assumption and go for it.

BTW -- Since Mom does some designs based on customer requests ("make me a clown-face cake") does this affect your diagram?

 

[M Greenaway]

This is a great discussion.

Can I chip in please......

Jim, it appears you are taking Mike through a 'business modelling' lesson, which is all fine and dandy, and is what many of us are doing to satisfy this ISO9001 requirement.

But can I hark back to comments/questions posted a little while back, and re-itterated by Mike in that 'what purpose does this serve our business ?'

It appears again that perhaps we are merely going through a documentation exercise (the curse of ISO9001), and debating the format of this documentation.

Mike is quite correct in saying that a process can adequately be defined in written text, and many of us may well have what we traditionally called 'procedures' which actually adequately defined processes. To define them in your Quality Manual could well be, as suggested, a throw back to the 1994 requirement to contain in your Quality Manual all your operating procedures, or reference to them.

What is really key here is that the processes are adequately defined - not necessarily documented (ignoring ISO9001 for a second), i.e. what is actually fundemental is that those who work within the process, or interface with it know how the process is defined - and they may know this through training and/or experience. And if the guys who implement any new or changed process are the owners of the business, and the same guys who work inthe process (as in the case of Mom and Pops cake shop) then where is the benefit to the business.

Another thing I am in two minds on ..........

 

[M Greenaway]

Jim

On the debate over the format of our process definitions I would agree that a diagramatic model has many advantages over written text in clearly identifying processes, their sequences and interactions. The standard doesnt mandate a format for our process definitions, hence anyone offering written text for this would be compliant with ISO9001. I would agree that a better way is to create such a model as that you are generating with Mike.

But lets ask ourselves again why we need such a model on such a broad high level ?

Will we find we are operating large chunks of business processes that we were unaware of, such as design ? I dont think so.

Will we find inefficiencies in our business ? On such a high level model I dont think so either, detailed process mapping may achieve this.

So regardless of the format what is the purpose of this requirement ?

 

[M Greenaway]

Jim

I would have thought that most companies appoint departmental managers for departments which naturally tend to evolve around business processes. Maybe they would not know all the business processes, but I am sure they would know the ones they interact with - after all why would they need to know.

The guy who might like to know is the fella at the very top. Now if he doesnt already know until ISO9001 comes along and forces him to think about it then something is terribly wrong is it not ?

 

[Mike S.]

In the attached file I added a few measures but otherwise it is pretty much how Mom and Pop run things. But, as I said, it doesn't show the design step Mom does on occasion when she gets a request she has not had before. If she has done a "clown face" before she would reference the old design info. from her records, but if it is a first-time request she needs to design it.

I'm glad Martin has chimed-in as I was hoping this would not just be the "Jim and Mike Show". He has asked some good questions. I think there must be many folks out there who have their own thoughts, suggestions, "better ideas", comments, etc. relating to this section of ISO. I think each organization should consider how much this step might (or might not) help them when deciding whether to spend lots of time on it or gloss over it with the fastest/easiest thing that will meet the requirement. Debate such as this should help their decision.

Generally Cove members aren't bashful with their thoughts, so...anyone else have any commnets?

 

[Randy Stewart]

Look Out

I'm back.

Mike it does address the new design. In the "take order" step you are addressing "Contract Review" and establishing Customer Requirements. In the design cake step you are putting the finishing touches on the design (drawing the clown face). Now Mom may go through some practice (Design Review), and may reference pictures from a magazine but these can all be part of a drill down in your process flow.

This is what I meant when I said don't go too far. It's not really a business model, it just shows how the processes interrelate.

I enjoyed getting back into the threads. I have 10 audits coming up between this now and the end of November. I'm gonna be busy.

 

[Steve MacDonald]

Greetings;

We rolled our own. Small company. The system manaual is the quality manaul. Put the Policy in 5.3, objectives in 5.4.1 and tossed in the other stuff up front with an index, scope, exclusions, process sequences, etc.

Every department has a manual and every manual is the whole package. (The tree-huggers love me)


Steve

 

[energy]

I prefer Visio!

Doing charts in Word is like driving a farm tractor without power steering as opposed to a Lexus As a "Q" person, not enough study has gone into acceptance criteria and actions to correct deficiencies. While it is a Top Level Chart, the existance of a CA/PA System is impressive for a Mom & Pop Shop! Give them their certificate!

M.,

This does nothing to enhance a Mom & Pop Shop. They are operating at maximum efficiency, or they would be out of business quick. Too much competition from Pop and Mom Shops and the big Pastry chains. This is all about getting the Certificate because more people will so impressed with that ISO Stamp on your marketing materials and on their register receipts that they will come in to buy and come back. Yea, right!

 

[M Greenaway]

Energy

Although the mom and pop analogy does serve a purpose, and has certain merits I dont think most of us aspire to being a mom and pop cake shop - know what I mean ?