PPAP Submission Package - Tier II supplier to a Tier I

J

JaySturgeon

#1
I was wondering how some of you handle the documents that will typically not be in your submission package; i.e. Design FMEA (which I never get from my customers). We are tier II supplier to tier I. It has been suggested to have a seperate page for each item, stating that it does not apply for this specific PPAP pachage.

All suggestions are welcome.

Thanks

:bonk:
 
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B

Bob_M

#2
Limited Knowledge but here's my $0.02

Although I have limited experience and knowledge and were not exactly within the OFFICIAL Big 3 Tier system we do provide PPAPs.

If our customer did not supply us with a Design FEMA or Engineering Change documents or any other documents the CUSTOMER creates, I simply don't include it because I don't have it.

Also if they did not supply us with their PPAP documents/forms we use our own. Works so far.

If I had to guess, I/we are probably suppose to ASK for the missing documents. Seems silly. Why would the customer want a copy of their own document BACK if they did not give it to us in the first place.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Later
Bob M
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#3
Re: PPAP Submission Package

JaySturgeon said:

I was wondering how some of you handle the documents that will typically not be in your submission package; i.e. Design FMEA (which I never get from my customers). We are tier II supplier to tier I. It has been suggested to have a seperate page for each item, stating that it does not apply for this specific PPAP pachage.

All suggestions are welcome.

Thanks

:bonk:
I have seen this option and IMHO it is not the best way to go.
If you do not havedesign responsibility you do not need to provide DFMEA.
I have found that the best way is to contact your customer and agree with him on the contents of the submission. This way there are no surprisies or returns for lack of information.
You give him the choice and he than has to abide by it.
 
J

JaySturgeon

#4
Thanks for the input

I have talked to the customer, but alas they have been very wishy washy about verbal answers. Their Supplier Quality Manual states that all requirements of the PPAP manual Level 3 submission apply. It further lists what has to be included, which, is everything in the manual. Obviously, I will not have everything. So what does everyone think of my first idea of having a page dedicated to each item, and where I do not have the stuff (like design FMEA) just state it is not applicable?

Let me know.

Thanks,

Jay

:confused:
 
B

Bill Ryan - 2007

#5
I have adopted a booklet type of submission package which has a divider for each of the 17 "S" elements listed in table I.4.1 of the PPAP manual. If one doesn't apply, I insert a dated and signed sheet which has "Not Required" as the header. This has worked fine with both Tier 1 and 2 customers of mine. If I mess up and "forget" an item, they let me know about it.

By the way, the DFMEA, Appearance Approval Report, and Bulk Material Requirements Checklist all have the caveat of "as applicable".

Bill
 
J

JaySturgeon

#6
Thanks Bill

It sounds as though I am thinking of doing pretty much what you are already doing.

Now I am confused slightly. Your comment "By the way, the DFMEA, Appearance Approval Report, and Bulk Material Requirements Checklist all have the caveat of "as applicable".

You used the word Caveat. Not sure I understand the use of that word along with your comment.
Definition:
1 a : a warning enjoining one from certain acts or practices b : an explanation to prevent misinterpretation
2 : a legal warning to a judicial officer to suspend a proceeding until the opposition has a hearing

I think you are telling me they have to be included, but, we do not do design and no records have been supplied to me by the customer. That page states that customer did not supply us with a Design FMEA.

What do you think?

Jay


:confused:
 
B

Bill Ryan - 2007

#7
Jay

Perhaps the word "caveat" wasn't the proper way to explain myself (but it sounded so goooood :rolleyes: ).

If you are not "design responsible" for the part/product, the DFMEA is NOT required in the submission package. Even If I'm lucky enough to get a DFMEA from my customer, it still does not go into my package. The sheet I put in there says, simply, "Not Required".

There is a lot of confusion regarding the DFMEA, as discussed in various other threads here in the Cove. I wouldn't be surprised if, somewhere down the road, the B3 decide they want our "Process DFMEA", as we are responsible for designing the process, as well as the tooling (die). But I guess we'll cross that bridge when it becomes a mandate (we don't currently perform DFMEAs for our processes).

By the way - Welcome to the Cove. :bigwave:

Hope I helped clarify myself??

Bill
 
#8
Asking for the DFMEA at the PPAP submittal stage is too late!
It;s not what you can do because you do not have it; it's what you can not do because you do not have it.
The design FMEA should have been submitted to you during your quoting process. How can you adequately perform a feasibiity study or prepare a useful PFMEA without the the DFMEA? How would you know the test parameters? What about a DVP&R?
 
B

Bill Ryan - 2007

#9
Sam said:
The design FMEA should have been submitted to you during your quoting process. How can you adequately perform a feasibiity study or prepare a useful PFMEA without the the DFMEA? How would you know the test parameters? What about a DVP&R?
That's all very nice verbage but the fact is that DFMEAs are not forthcoming in the automotive world!! Perhaps it's mainly due to the Design Engineers performing the DFMEA methodology on their Assembly, as opposed to, the component level. I suppose they also have their own "proprietary" concerns.

It is possible to still perform a suitable PFMEA without input from the DFMEA (and it happens more frequently than not)!!

If I'm not design responsible, the DVP&R means nothing to me. If there are some testing requirements, they had better be spelled out on the part drawing or, as you mentioned, documented during the quoting process.

Sorry for the "rant".

Bill
 
#10
Bill said;
" . . . DFMEAs are not forthcoming in the automotive world!! '

And whose fault is that? None other than the QM at the teir I, II, etc. facility. As an organization/supplier you are required to submit/maintain a level 3 PPAP, unless otherwise notified by the supplier. It is the QM's responsibility to ensure that all documentation, including exceptions are procured. Failure to have this documentation constitutes a nonconformance.

"It is possible to still perform a suitable PFMEA without input from the DFMEA (and it happens more frequently than not)!!"

I agree. But it doesn't make it right. Our customer has set the requirements. As a QM it is our responsiblity to meet those requirements, even if it means "ruffling the feathers of our customer".

If I'm not design responsible, the DVP&R means nothing to me. If there are some testing requirements, they had better be spelled out on the part drawing or, as you mentioned, documented during the quoting process. "

I agree. Just mentioned DVP&R for those that are considered design responsible.
 
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