Supplier doesn't think drawings need to be controlled

P

Phiobi

#1
I recently audited a supplier (they paint parts for me). Whilst reviewing their quality manual I came across the following, within Document Control:

“It is not <company name> policy to control drawings.”

A bit of history to this is that last year I audited them and found that their manual stated they did control drawings, but they were not controlling them.

This specific section of their manual was updated the WEEK before my audit this year which is all a bit fishy to me.
Anyway, I have raised this as a major non-conformance. I had an ‘off the record’ chat with my AS9100 auditor and he was resolute that it was a major non-conformance.

Since I raised the issue they have asked me to cancel the NCR because...
“With reference to finding NC51, I have reviewed the control of documents clause in AS9100 and I have also spoken with our AS9100 certification body and I believe that we are compliant with clause 4.2.3 f) that you refer to. For the benefit of the persons copied on this e-mail, the clause states that a documented procedure shall be established to define the controls needed to:
f) Ensure that documents of external origin determined by the organisation to be necessary for the planning and operation of the quality management system are identified and their distribution controlled.
<company name> has such a procedure in place in which section 5 states “It is not <company name> policy to control drawings. All drawings are returned to the customer on completion of processing”.
The intention of this statement is that drawings are not controlled once the customer’s order is completed.
Whilst the drawing is on site it is controlled to the extent that the issue status is verified at contract review and the drawing accompanies our route card along with the customer’s purchase order.
Upon completion of the order the drawing is deemed to be no longer required and is returned with the parts.
Therefore because the drawing relating to a particular purchase order is under our control for the duration of processing, we deem to be compliant with the above clause.
To ensure we are all clear on the interpretation of this clause, I shall also seek advice from a couple of Senior Accreditation People I know (LLoyds, DNV).”
I know this is getting a bit long winded so I will get to the point. We send them a controlled drawing, we do not, as they state in their procedure send a new drawing for each order (500 orders per year) therefore it is my opinion that they should control drawings and have evidence of it.

I am tempted to add a major non-conformance for their contract review procedure. They state that a drawing is required with each order and we have not sent one with the past 300 orders....

Anyway, I guess what I’m asking is am I pushing a non-issue or should I stick to my guns and escalate this NCR issue? I am doing as my supplier referenced in his email... “I shall also seek advice from a couple of Senior Accreditation People I know (LLoyds, DNV).” But I'm going one step further and asking the Cove!!
 
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bobdoering

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#2
Re: Supplier doesn't think drawings need to be controlled...

If they did what they said, then it could be considered controlling the drawing. But, as it stands, it would be a nonconformance because:
1. They do not state as their actual drawing control process in their policy:
We use a new drawing that accompanies each purchase order and do not retain drawings for future orders. Whilst the drawing is on site it is controlled to the extent that the issue status is verified at contract review and the drawing accompanies our route card along with the customer’s purchase order. Upon completion of the order the drawing is deemed to be no longer required and is returned with the parts. All drawings are returned to the customer on completion of processing. The intention of this statement is that drawings are not controlled once the customer’s order is completed. They simply state they do not control drawings - and that is the wrong answer.
2. They do not request a drawing for every order. So, yes, you could add the nonconformace to their contract review.
 
#3
Re: Supplier doesn't think drawings need to be controlled...

It'll be interesting to see if the answer from DNV and LRQA jive with what you learn here - since we have folks from DNV and LRQA (well, in the past) here too!

I'm tending towards this being an nc. However, I'd like to know what you've reported verbatim. Clearly they are at odds, saying they don't control drawings and then describing how they do!!

If they say they ask for new drawings from you and don't, they may in fact still be verifying the issue referenced in the PO they get from you and making that determination to ask for new drgs. My supplier (when I was SQM at Renishaw) did similar things.

Did you report this implementation as being non-compliant? Or something else. You both may be missing the point.

Quite frankly, it seems this supplier is less than 'customer focused'......and I wonder if you might do better to find an alternate source. They seem to be making a mountain out of a mole hill for such a simple point and as for putting that statement in their manual - do they really get it?
 
P

Phiobi

#4
Re: Supplier doesn't think drawings need to be controlled...

My NC was short and sweet... GP002 rev 10 section 5.3 (rewritten May 09) states “It is not <company name> policy to control drawings”. AS9100 Section 4.2.3 f stipulates the requirement for document control.

I have tried to keep it simple and to the point to enable an open response. To be honest I am fed up with this supplier but also concerned about the work they do as Boeing, Airbus, RR approved finishers!!!

As you say they have tried to null the NC by telling me how they control drawings yet the QM clearly states they do not!?

They have since told me they have their AS9100 audit next week, I'm thinking about exersising my right as a customer and turning up on site during the audit... this company also refused to let me see the last audit report!!!
 
#6
Re: Supplier doesn't think drawings need to be controlled...

My NC was short and sweet... GP002 rev 10 section 5.3 (rewritten May 09) states “It is not <company name> policy to control drawings”. AS9100 Section 4.2.3 f stipulates the requirement for document control.

I have tried to keep it simple and to the point to enable an open response. To be honest I am fed up with this supplier but also concerned about the work they do as Boeing, Airbus, RR approved finishers!!!

As you say they have tried to null the NC by telling me how they control drawings yet the QM clearly states they do not!?

They have since told me they have their AS9100 audit next week, I'm thinking about exersising my right as a customer and turning up on site during the audit... this company also refused to let me see the last audit report!!!

Bloody frustrating isn't it? Plus they probably stand behind the fact that they have been AS9100 registered as some kind of validation.

You could (should) air your concerns to their CB, I believe. I'm not sure I'd get into it with them actually during their audit, it might cause bigger repercussions than a simlpe document control issue is worth!

One key issues is that the 'effectiveness' of this bizarre system of theris should be tested. You NC, while a 'strict' nc might have looked a little further into what they actually do and if it's working.
 
P

Phiobi

#7
Re: Supplier doesn't think drawings need to be controlled...

Bloody frustrating isn't it? Plus they probably stand behind the fact that they have been AS9100 registered as some kind of validation.

You could (should) air your concerns to their CB, I believe. I'm not sure I'd get into it with them actually during their audit, it might cause bigger repercussions than a simlpe document control issue is worth!

One key issues is that the 'effectiveness' of this bizarre system of theris should be tested. You NC, while a 'strict' nc might have looked a little further into what they actually do and if it's working.
Usually I would chase something like this to the bone and give them as much detail as possible. In this case though as it is the exact opposite to the issue I found last year (their procedure said they controlled drawings but they didn't) I thought I would tell them the issue and let them decide how to "fix" it.

I was joking about jumping in on their audit:cool:

They are Boeing approved and Boeing are on my site tomorrow so if they don't respond today then I shall bring it up with them and see how they react.
 

CarolX

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#8
Re: Supplier doesn't think drawings need to be controlled...

Well to twist the whole thing a bit - You say you don't furnish a drawing with each order - how do you know they will paint the part to the correct revision.

I ask the question because we have one customer who does not put their revision level on their PO and we have made parts to an old revision. We have another customer that has a seperate revision for the part number and the drawing number. They can order part number 123 rev A, but the drawing could have been changed to rev D.

Just some food for thought.
 
P

Phiobi

#9
Re: Supplier doesn't think drawings need to be controlled...

Well to twist the whole thing a bit - You say you don't furnish a drawing with each order - how do you know they will paint the part to the correct revision.

I ask the question because we have one customer who does not put their revision level on their PO and we have made parts to an old revision. We have another customer that has a seperate revision for the part number and the drawing number. They can order part number 123 rev A, but the drawing could have been changed to rev D.

Just some food for thought.
I have "LOOKED AT MYSELF" in this but we supply a distributed, controlled drawing which is referenced in our purchase order. We also have a purchase order attachment which lists each specification they chould work to, references the drawing and any extra requirements.... I think we supply enough information which is the anoying part.... all they need to do is control the documents and we should all be happy!!

They have tried to say it is a resource issue..... I wonder how the control specifications they look at for each order???
 
#10
Re: Supplier doesn't think drawings need to be controlled...

..... I wonder how the control specifications they look at for each order???
Setting aside the wacky issue of their manual/procedures etc., may I ask what you expect in the way of 'control'? Some of what you described (their response) doesn't fully say what they do, but also nothing that would indicate an ineffective system....

Sorry I didn't get you joke - maybe it's a Worcester/Gloucester thing :lol:
 
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